Record Setting Day in Miami, Florida
December 11, 2009 by Lucas Lechuga
Today was a record setting day in Miami, Florida according to NBC6. Earlier this afternoon, temperatures reached 89 degrees which set a new recorded high in Miami for the month of December. I swear, we're just too spoiled here.
its hot in hell too but do you want to live there year round ??
Is this post intended to spark a discussion about weather? Lucas, has this blog been reduced to benign, weather-related small talk?
Besides, 89 deg is too hot and humid for this time of year, regardless of what’s happening around the US. I don’t feel “spoiled”, I feel cheated. It should be mid 70’s in mid-December.
Drew. Agree with you.
Lucas, keep to the RE. Last few posts have been good. Not as good as the closing rates though… guess you don;t want to spend the time looking athe records anymore! Just a simple MLS report
Well Lucas u gotta admit that they aren’t going to let u forget about your not posting closing rate graphs hehe. C’mon real estate this time of year is generally slow. Give us the closing rate graphs – just for old time sakes. We will all chip in and buy you something nice for Christmas. Wadda u say?
If people here spent half as much time doing their own research as they do bashing Lucas, they’d have the damn info. they keep asking for.
To me, the fact people want Lucas to do it just shows they’re a bunch of r.e. rubber-neckers. If people really wanted/needed this info., they’d be plowing thru the county records on their own.
Kramer,
Actually, this is one of the busiest times of the year for real estate in South Florida. It starts to get really busy here once it starts getting really cold up north. Generally, each year business picks up after Thanksgiving. Last year was an exception because of the economy.
I agree with Joe. I appreciate that Lucas puts up reams of useful info on his site in a very user friendly fashion, but I don’t expect him to be out doing all of the leg work (especially free of charge).
Most of the missing info can be found on the dade county sites anyhow. The county did change to a less user friendly data format awhile back, and I imagine that this is one reason why Lucas no longer deciphers all of the data for posting.
Keep up the good work Lucas. and congrats on that Marina Blue closing.
Bummer – I guess the only people you can bribe these days are city commissioners lol. Btw- That’s a great photo of Miami in the last post.
Lucas
Many of us are up north. NY is bitterly cold & its only Dec 12th. Your weather post is smart . We are jealous for much of the next 3/4 months as it can be physically painful to just walk outside here. Summers: hot & humid, like Miami but in NYC riding subways its not quite the same!
SeanJohn,
Thank you! That was exactly the reason why I wrote the post. I’m originally from Chicago and visit quite often. I receive regular reports about the weather from friends and family up north. I know how painfully cold it has been lately. Yesterday it was around 25 below 0 with the windchill in Chicago. These native Miamians are too spoiled to realize how bitter the cold can be this time of year.
Lucas,
That view looks like the one i wake up to every morning – were you at the miami film festival party at 900 b last night? Miami Downtown Development Authority hosting a party on the 17th – [email protected] for more info. best, shwin
The weather is the only thing Miami has going for it compared to cities up north like NYC and Boston, so we have to make the most of it. Just think, if the NYC lifestyle was warm year round, would you even consider Miami? Decision would not even be close. Just goes to show how miserable winters can be up north! But also shows how far Miami needs to come to be a legitimate city in terms of standard of living, activities, etc. Would be curious to see what the ratio of northerners who move to miami and stay versus those who give up and return north. Not counting retirees and independently wealthy, but working stiffs.
Gables, based on my experience I’d say the % who come down and stay for longer than 2 or 3 years is pretty low. They leave mainly due to the complete lack of white collar professional opportunities and to a lesser extent the culture shock.
If Miami can ever develop some sort of a real economy (not tourism and RE development based) it would become a world class city very quickly. Drive through Houston, Atlanta, or other major cities and look at all of the huge companies from real industries with their vast white collar workforces full of educated highly compensated employees. Then look at Miami, the main occupation here seems to be club promoter, and everyone is “taking classes at MDC” but no one ever seems to get much further than that. As an example of how underdeveloped our economy is, Miami has 2 Fortune 500 headquarters, Minneapolis of all places has 20!
Miami needs to somehow bring in a more educated work force, and try to lure in large employers with tax incentives. If any of these things happen, Miami would really take off (and some of these condos might eventually sell for more than their construction cost)
It hurts me to say this but is true. None of my New York Friends can take Miami for more than a week. It is a cultural thing. People like me are the exception. Most New Yorkers say that they don’t mind shuttling between the two cities but they can never live full time in Miami. I guess there is no substitute for New York to a large majority of New Yorkers. If you guys read about that couple living in 175 sq closet size apt in New York, paying $857/sf and an additional $700/month in maintenance, readers wrote in from across the nation and are wondering why would anyone live like that and for the same amount they can have a mansion in Florida. I guess a lot of people would rather pay the price of admission to the greatest city in the World rather than live in a mansion elsewhere.
But there are 18 million New Yorkers and there are some of us (how ever small a percentage) who are always willing to move to Miami for good. So Miami should always be in demand.
I have to agree too.
I love Miami, but have to shuttle back and forth from LA.
Not enough economy to really stay in Miami full-time.
AJ
I beg your pardon. NYC the greatest city in the World? And exactly what is it about NY that makes it so GREAT? Is it the cold winters and steamy hot summers – the high taxes – the polluted dirty air – the lack of green space – the expensive apartments – the schemers down on Wall Street – the Mafia – the unions – the filthy subways – the porn houses on 8th Av. – the $100. fare from JFK – Macy’s – the dog shit on the sidewalks – the hustlers in Times Square – the Knicks – the Mets – Donald Trump ??? And if you tell me it’s the culture then I will fly in a few times a year for a couple of days and then leave thank you. Maybe you just like saying the word Bloomberg hehe.
Kramer,
It is difficult to explain to someone who does not appreciate it. It is very personal. If you do not like NY atmosphere then so be it. You cannot rationalize it. Usually one either loves NY or hates it.
Yeah Kramer, It is the greatest city in the World exactly for all those things and more.
OK, you tell me which is the greatest city in the World? LA (LMFAO)? Frisco, Seattle, Chicago, Rio, Sydney, London, Bombay, Paris, Hong Kong……?
Yeah, I know. You are as speechless as anyone else who will question the greatness of the most awe inspiring experiment in human kinds history and existence that is New York City. Love it or hate it, there is no substitute, comparison or competition for New York.
Maybe we should just skip telling Kramer what makes NYC so great if you’re all cool with that?
People make their money somewhere else then they move to Miami seeking better weather. There is not a culture in culture that supports hard work or rewards honesty. It is really that simple. Miami will never become a financial because of this.
Mistyped on my cell. Ie. No culture in miami
Not very politically correct, but the post above (#20) is 100% right.
Really, if we want to be honest, the same thing is true for all of Latin America right now.
Re…# 22 Sao Paulo in Brazil for one is a huge & growing global financial center. While Brazil still struggles with poverty, the country, overall, has been booming for years.
Seems like most agree Miami does not hold a candle to other cities such as NYC, outside of weather and play. Not meaning Miami has no perks, but the perks tend to be for those already blessed with money rather than those who work for a living. Miami Skeptic, I agree with you that many people who move south to Miami leave within 5 years. Your thoughts reinforced my suspicions.
If Miami truly had a source of good white collar work, the condos around dowtown Miami would have been sold off by now. Can you imagine how long those would last in the New York area (not even manhattan) at around $350k for a 2B? Would be gone in a blink. I know, as i’ve been considering the move myself. Given all that, the opportunities available when some of these condos fall to $200k will be once in a lifetime for those who do plan on staying long term in Miami. Agree with AJ, many of these units will eventually return to prices outside the range of ordinary folks. But they will become much less liquid than during the boom years-that is the downside to RE outside of a boom market.
will be interesting to see what, if any, the recent confirmation of Legionnaire’s Disease in Epic will have on that particular building, and other downtown buildings in general. my guess is not very good for Epic in the near term.
Gables, I would imagine it will have a devastating effect. Really, I can’t think of any news that could be much worse than, “If you drink the water at Epic, you may die.”
But from what I understand from the article, didn’t it happen a while ago? It is not some fresh occuring or breaking news.
When Noravirus broke out on cruise ships a few (a couple) years ago, people paused for a second. It is all forgotton and long gone. Same with the Taco Bell incident. No one really cares as the time passes. Life goes on.
AJ, the problem with Legionnaire’s Disease is that it has a fatality rate between 5% and 30%-not something to play games with. Norovirus is flulike and upset stomach, but not nearly so dangerous. given some many alternative choices, will be interesting.
Epic… from what I understand they had a water filtration system installed to take out chlorine. This caused a problem that has been going on for a fairly long time. I suspect because the building is sparsely occupied it had standing water that exasperated the problem. Only my speculation.
From a legal point of view the filtration company and the installer will bear a great legal burden. If this were a full fledged condominium and the building didn’t do proper maintenance the building would be bankrupt overnight. Insurance will step in, but the deductible is so high it begins a death spiral.
Many buildings will turn the water heater down below what the recommended temperature to save some money. I expect this to be a huge warning to the city inspectors in the future.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/osta/otm/otm_iii/otm_iii_7.html
COMMON SOURCES OF CONTAMINATED WATER.
1. Water sources that frequently provide optimal conditions for growth of the organisms include:
* cooling towers, evaporative condensers, and fluid coolers that use evaporation to reject heat. These include many industrial processes that use water to remove excess heat;
* domestic hot-water systems with water heaters that operate below 60°C (140°F) and deliver water to taps below 50°C (122°F);
* humidifiers and decorative fountains that create a water spray and use water at temperatures favorable to growth;
* spas and whirlpools;
* dental water lines, which are frequently maintained at temperature above 20°C (68°F) and sometimes as warm as 37°C (98.6°F) for patient comfort; and
* other sources including stagnant water in fire sprinkler systems and warm water for eye washes and safety showers.
gables (post #24) — Most of the condos downtown *already* are out of reach of “ordinary folks,” or else they would have been long gone by now.
Remember, a $50,000 price drop sounds great, but the condo fees not only *aren’t* dropping but most likely will be increasing at most of these buildings in the very near future.
This will sound elitist — I don’t mean it to be — but the truth of the matter is this: HOA fees are a luxury for most people, and luxury condos aren’t meant for teachers or bus drivers who might be able to afford a unit at the rock-bottom prices.
I don’t care what AJ or anyone else says; this is the reality: There were far too many high-end condo buildings built in Miami vis-a-vis Miami’s job base, and most of these downtown buildings are doomed to mediocrity, declining amenities, and/or futures as glorified rental buildings. Unless thousands of wealthy people suddenly move into Miami, there simply aren’t enough jobs to support people paying their mortgage *plus* $300 to $1,000 (or more!) per month in HOA fees. There just aren’t.
If those jobs and incomes existed, those condos would have been full 1-2 years ago. Who wants to commute 30-60 minutes each way every day when they could live in a brand-new oceanfront building 2 minutes from work? The jobs/incomes just don’t exist in the Miami market. It’s as simple as that.
Transit drivers are not a good example. With overtime they can retire with $100,000 a year. ‘Miami transit OT draining county budget’ dates back to 2006. They can easily afford one of these buildings. In fact most local government workers will be occupying these buildings. The none government workers will have to live in Overtown.
So a condo south of fifth just sent around notices about an “emergency petition for appointment of receiver” . Sounds like too many owners not paying their dues each month.
and I read on another forum, but not sure if this is true or not about a different building…
“At Bentley Bay, the HOA has pushed passed $1M in delinquencies. The HOA dues are now above $1.25/sq ft.”
southbeachsand: which condo in SoFi going into receivership?
Miami corporations will not relocate to Miami because of the uneducated work force. Ivy League CEO’s would never consider the city because of this. On top of this you have a new immigrant population that struggles to speak as well as the taxi drivers in NYC. Then you have the culture of coruption imported from Latin america. Many of the wealthy owners at Bristol, Santa Maria, Four Seasons amassed their fortunes by never paying taxes in their home country because of no tax enforcement. They come here not understanding the concept of needing to pay taxes, so they don’t.
The out of town money has been hit hard, they wil not bebuying condos again, unless it is more Latinos laundering money so they don’t have tipsy taxes back home
I don’t understand why “southbeachsand” didn’t name the condo, but that’s really interesting about a SoFi condo possibly heading into receivership. The theory on this board all year has been that prices aren’t falling in SoFi because well-heeled owner-investors could ride out the r.e. storm, but this news would put the lie to that, at least in one building.
How many condos are there in SoFi? I can think of Apogee, Continuum North (II), Continuum South (I), Murano Grande, Murano at Portofino, Portofino Tower, South Pointe Tower, Yacht Club at Portofino, … others?
Another item. The IRS is looking very hard at laundered deals from abroad (particuarly from Latin america) going back many years on condos purchased at higher end buildings. As a result (post 911) a large amount of non taxed Latin money has been eliminated permanently from the landscape. No investor from Latin america is going to himself by having his assets invested in a condo seized. Talk to any high end attorney who deals and advises on this subject. The word on the street is the money is going to Canada, costa rica and panama – because of these concerns. This is something most Americans don’t get, how important this is……influencing the market to not recover as people may think.
Bad typing. ” no Latin American investor is going to expose himself……..”As above
big problem down here is the “entitlement” mentality of the wealthy. I know there is a backlash on this board from some against the poor who demand government provide them whatever means necessary to survive. but the rich down here are a unique brand as well, due to their foreign born experiences. many do not believe they should pay taxes, insurance, HOA, etc here in the States, because they do not pay in their home country (latin america, russia, italy are prime examples). this is why capitalism breaks down in south florida so quickly-the trust component is eroded immediately. capitalism and business become very inefficient in such environments.
gables, please do not generalize!
In Europe, in most countries people pay taxes, insurance, HOA fees etc as you have to in the USA. E.g. , in Italy you have to pay property taxes for your second home!
But the HOA fees are quite lowe because there are only scarce amenities in the condo buildings (mostly no pools) and receptions or doormen are not common (except in ultra luxury premises). As a little example: In Europe we do not know valet services.
You might be right regarding Eastern Europe and Latin America.
I think a lot of people are really missing the point when comparing Miami to NY. I currently work and spend most of my time in the NE (DC, NY, Boston) but I grew up in the Midwest. I completely understand why someone would bear the freezing winters up here just to live in NY, but comparing these two cities just doesn’t seem to make sense.
When looking at population Miami ranks 43rd in America. Some cities that are considerably larger than Miami are Detroit, Columbus, Louisville, El Paso, Kansas City, etc. And quite frankly most people would rather live in NY than all these cities.
So I think its odd that people are comparing Miami to NY, Chicago, Boston (3 of the largest cities in America) while skipping over the other 40 cities that are larger than Miami as if this somehow shows why Miami sucks. If anything this show how much people actually love the city.
If the NYC lifestyle was warm year round would you consider Detroit or Columbus? Most people wouldn’t. But given what is actually reality, to most people it sucks up north in the winter so countless people will choose Miami over Columbus (which is almost twice the size of Miami) in a heartbeat.
So even though Miami ranks in the 40’s in size, the climate and amenities move Miami into the ranks of the top 5-10 cities. I don’t see how that’s a negative for Miami.
I agree however that Miami is lacking a sizable professional workforce. I attribute this to the fact that it is smaller than most people think, lack of prominent schools in the south, an economy that is based on tourism and high cost of living. Sure places like Minneapolis have a large number of company headquarters located there. But it’s for a reason, the cost of living is low. You can pay your upper management employees less and they can still live in 5000 sq ft homes. But go visit. I assure you that anyone who enjoys NY or Miami will not be able to live there for long.
Gixxer – Miami is the 7th largest metro area in the country, with about triple the population of Columbus/Louisville etc. This is why we generally discuss it vs the other major metros.
Actual city population is fairly meaningless, just depends where the legal city limits are. This is why Jacksonville is technically the most populous city in Florida, most of the metro area falls within the actual city limits. Anyone who has spent a minute in both JAX and MIA knows that Miami is a much much larger city.
Gixxer-
Your “population” argument (as a measurement of one city being “better” than another) doesn’t make much sense.
While it may be true that the City of Miami proper ranks 40+/- in population, you must realize that the City of Miami’s geographic boundary is very small, and your argument is flawed if you make comparisons off of that misleading population figure. When people speak of, refer to, or associate with “MIAMI” they typically are talking about South Florida in general (Miami-Dade & Broward), or in the very least, the City of Miami, Miami Beach and the surrounding municipalities (Hialeah, Coral Gables, Pinecrest, Doral, Kendall, etc.)
Note that “South Florida” for US census purposes, ranks 6th nationally for population. The census figures comprise regional assessments, not just municipality populations that give you skewed and misleading #’s (like only looking at City of Miami population).
It is not odd that Miami isn’t compared to other cities that may have a greater population; Miami is compared to cities (NY, LA, Vegas) that it actually has things in common with – art, music, entertainment, tourism- regardless of population. Population is a non-issue, so there’s no reason to compare to El Paso or Kansas City.
Gixxer,
The posts on population are correct. The Miami metro area is one of the largest in the nation. That is why it compares to NYC, Boston, etc. New York is not made up of just Manhattan either-the surroundings are immense. Columbus and Miami are not even remotely comparable.
Visionary (#39),
My generalization is well founded in experience. Not talking ordinary folks, but the wealthy. And they do not pay their taxes in many countries. Italy is offering amnesty (again) to repatriate money into the country. The wealthy have the ways and means to avoid payment. In Miami, I know several foreign wealthy condo owners who are not paying HOA-their response is sue me if you can. The fees and taxes exist everywhere, but the enforcement leaves alot to be desired around the world.
Latest news about the Epic from SFBJ:
Epic Hotel closed, Legionnaire’s suspected
The Epic Hotel in downtown Miami has been shut down following reports of tourists getting sick from the hotel’s water system.
I don’t know if using a metro area really works when your trying to compare specific cities. If you consider the Miami Metro area your talking about as far north as Jupiter and as far south as Homestead, that over 120 mile span. However Columbus is about 100 miles from Cincinnati and they are not consider one metro area because there is not a lot of commuting between the two areas. Heck, Dayton is only 40 min away and it’s not considered the same metro area. Metro areas have to do with people commuting not living. Metro areas and statistical areas are computed for a lot of arbitrary reasons. Do you really consider Palm Beach County a part of Miami? Since there is absolutely nothing else close to Miami within about another 300 miles their metro area spans out farther. Other than NY South Florida is the longer than any other urbanized area.
Most would choose Manhattan over Miami but what about Southold (on Long Island) and Ft Lauderdale. Me personally I would take Ft Lauderdale. And I bet most people would. Or what about Hackensack, NJ. I have friends in these areas that go to Manhattan only a couple of times a year. But they just live there because they were born there. Trust me if family wasn’t an issue these people would rather live in Miami and visit Manhattan a few times a year rather than live in Southold and visit Manhattan a few times a year.
But regardless my original point still stands. Even when considering the entire metro area, Miami should be considered similar to Detroit, Dallas, Houston, Dallas, Philly, Boston, etc. Not NY, not LA and not Chicago. These areas are double to quadruple the size of the Miami metro area. But I never hear anyone comparing Detroit or Dallas to NY. But yet Miami does get compared. Obviously the draw of Miami elevates it above similar size cities (or metro areas).
Drew helps prove this point. He throws Vegas in with NY and LA. Even considering the metro area, Las Vegas is 1/5 the size of the LA metro area and 1/10 the size of the NY metro area. But the allure of Vegas elevates its status just like the allure of Miami does.
South florida has a unique geography-everglades to the west and ocean to the east. Thus by default it is a very long and thin metro area. But people work in downtown Miami, and live as far south as homestead and north of Ft Lauderdale. It is one large but continuous area (not ready to consider palm beach a part of miami, however). Typically people consider Miami-Ft Lauderdale as one unit, and this combination makes for a quite large metro area.
In addition to size, one must compare common economical engines with each city. Miami is a tourist city, so it must be compared to other tourist cities to make sense. Industrial towns cannot compare to Miami-you need a work ethic 🙂 LA, Chicago and NY have alot of tourist components-particularly foreign visitors. Thus the comparison. Detroit does not have this component so it is not comparable. New Orleans has tourism, but the metro area is far too small to be comparable. Orlando has tourism, but who actually considers the home of a mouse to be a real city?
Gables you do have to pay tax in Europe Latin america, the problem is if you arrange to get paid outside of the us you are not taxed on income. Talk to any tax lawyer on this subject. 99 percent of the deals done by foreign nationals are in order not to pay any tax back home. So when they pay full price it is a discount. Those days are over you are going to see a lot of siezed condos by the treasury department on this subject. This is why Russians Latins are not buying, they don’t want to get caught up in reporting requirements -and having their condo siezed. This money will not return to the us ever, that money that propped up prices is gone. Biggest exposure are titles held in the name of a trust by a foreign national- non American
NEWS FLASH: Epic Hotel shuttered, Legionnaire’s suspected
http://southflorida.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2009/12/14/daily3.html
Unbelievable!
scriv
Again I think my point is being missed. NY, LA and Chicago in and of themselves are not tourist attractions. The attraction is the people themselves. Art, Music, Entertainment is all a byproduct of the massive amounts of people. There is more culture, arts, shows, etc in NY because there are so many more people there. They have a larger group of consumers.
Add another 15 million more people to the Miami metro area and I’m sure you would have all the tourism, music, arts, etc as NY. There is nothing in any of these cities that cannot be built in Miami but you cant move a beach with tropical climate to any of them.
But regardless my point is in regards to the actual amenities of Miami in comparison to similar cities in regards to your comment:
“But also shows how far Miami needs to come to be a legitimate city in terms of standard of living, activities, etc.”
How is Miami’s standard of living or activities lower than any other city with similar resources (i.e. population).
It seems like you are trying to compare a Ferrari and a Corvette by saying that they are both sport cars. I guess if you walked up to most people on the street they would say the Ferrari is better. I’m just pointing out that they are not really in the same class considering the Ferrari cost $175k and the Corvette cost $65k. The mere fact that they are being compared speaks volumes for the Corvette.
Gixxer 1000:
Add another 15 million more people to the Miami metro area? No thanks. Those that are here are causing enough chaos, mayhem and general ruckus. They don’t need help. (Smile)
scriv