Atlantis on Brickell 3 Bedroom Condo Foreclosure
May 10, 2010 by Lucas Lechuga
Maintenance fees are $1198 per month.
Living Room
Kitchen
Master Bedroom
Master Bathroom
Second Bedroom
Second Bathroom
Third Bedroom
Third Bathroom
Laundry Room
Atlantis on Brickell was completed in 1982 and is considered a landmark building located at 2025 Brickell Avenue, Miami, FL 33129.
looks updated well and in decent condition! What is the deal with “Maintenance fees are $1198 per month”?
2 things that would be useful to know:
1) what is the floor plan
2) what is the expected rent for this
Looks nice, but maintenance is too high to justify IMO.
I think $1198 maintenance fees are about average for a unit over 2000 sqft and in an full service older building with relatively small number of units. The maintenance for Ten Mueseum Park..the 1800sqft units facing the bay are over $1500 a month.
Marky Mark, that’s the problem. Maintenance is too high at the majority of buildings here. Anything above 40 cents/sq. foot, maybe up to 50 cents/sq. foot for a so-called “luxury” building, is unreasonable IMO.
Otherwise, this looks like a pretty nice unit. Not quite sure about some of the decor (I mean really, what happened with that third bathroom?!), but it’s nice to see a place advertised at a decent price that’s not decorator ready or completely run down.
“If you don’t own a home today, now is the time to buy one,” Paulson said, adding that people may want to consider buying a second house or helping relatives buy one.
FULL ARTICLE HERE:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idCNN1022181220100510?rpc=44
To quote a friend of mine…..”high maintenance keeps out the riff-raff.” (wink)
It’s an interesting unit. A wood extension on the island is interesting choice, but what IDIOT put the cook top in the island? No real exhaust fan will make for a greasy mess on the ceiling above. Oh well….it looks cool. Fashion over function.
I agree with DJ concerning the bathroom #3.
scriv
Love the wrap around living area view….
I’ve noticed a lot of people commenting about how HOA fees are too high. While I will probably rent for a year or two I’m curious as to how people are determining what should be the value of HOA fees.
I guess the way I have been looking at it is to see how much I would probably pay for similar fees If I owned a similar single family home in the area. So I look at the homes and trying and figure out insurance, maintenance, pool fees, gym fees etc. And from what I’m seeing is that while HOA fees may seem outrageous they are actually in line with the area.
For example let’s take this unit with HOA fees of $1198. If you were to buy a similar home in the area a street over on S. Miami Ave. your insurance cost alone would be almost $1000 a month. Add in the cost of pool maintenance and gym membership and you’re already above $1198. And we haven’t even touched any maintenance issues.
So I know it’s easier to simply say anything these fees should be 40 cents/sqft, but are people actually breaking down the cost to see what these cost should actually be?
I’ve looked at Brickell 25 which is only a couple of blocks south of this building because they post their budget reports online.
http://www.brickell-25.com/
When you look at just the insurance cost they come out to about 10 cents/sqft. And the units at Brickell 25 are much cheaper than at Atlantis. Using this as a proxy I wouldn’t be surprised if the insurance cost alone on the Atlantis units is close to 20 cents/sqft. And if you convert the cost of insurance on similar homes into a monthly price/sqft you get over .35/sqft for insurance alone.
Atlantis has not only better amenities but also more of them. Better/larger pool, better/larger gym, jacuzzi, tennis court, racquetball, etc. All of these things cost more. So the fees at Brickell 25 are .32/sqft while this unit is about .55/sqft. It seems only common sense that a more luxurious building should have a higher fee per sqft to maintain a more expensive property. The units are more expensive so shouldn’t the insurance be more expensive? The pool is more expensive so shouldn’t the maintenance be more expensive? The grounds are larger and more expensive so shouldn’t the grounds keeping be more expensive?
Mortgage borrower delinquency rates in the first quarter of 2010 continued to be highest in Nevada (15.98 percent) and Florida (14.65 percent),
With regard to regional forecasts, Florida is anticipated to experience the highest mortgage delinquency rate by the end of 2010, reaching as high as 18.2 percent.
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/TransUnion-National-Mortgage-Delinquencies-Fall-174-Percent-in-2010-Opening-Quarter-1256842.htm
More than four of every 10 owners of single-family homes in the Miami-Fort Lauderdale area owed more on their mortgages than their homes were worth at the end of March, according to a report released Monday. In March, just over 51 percent of all homes that sold in the area, which includes Miami-Dade, Broward and Palm Beach counties, went for a loss. And 83 percent of all homes — not only those that sold — saw their values decline year-over-year.
The report said home values fell nearly 10 percent from March 2009 to March of this year. The median price of all homes in the area is now $160,700.
Home sellers in South Florida (Miami/Ft. Lauderdale/Palm Beach) had the largest price reduction percentage, compared to the original list price, at 13.38 percent on average, or a median price reduction of $30,900
Gixxer – Property insurance premium on a 2,150 sf home in City of Miami is $12,000 per yr? Excuse me? With what- a $0 deductible?
“South Florida home sales soar in first quarter”
http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/05/11/1624037/south-florida-home-sales-soar.html
“South Florida Condo Resale Inventory Falls Below 40,000 “
The precise numbers aside, Gixx’s point is a darn good one and exposes yet another issue in this valuation debate: from whose perspective ought these HOA fees be valued?
Value is, after all, a subjective determination.
After all, an owner who is looking to purchase the unit as a home will view these fees differently than will an investor/speculator who is purchasing the unit for investment purposes (rental income, flip, etc.) and who has no intent in residing there or no intent on residing there long-term.
Thus, while the investor will reject units in a particular building because the HOA fees are “too high” because they may adversely affect his/her profit derived from the unit, it is more likely that a bona fide purchaser looking to actually live in the unit will analyze the HOA fees in terms of opportunity costs they represent. Right?
While both methods are acceptable, can it be said that one is more valid or more objective that the other?
scriv
Mortgage borrower delinquency rates in the first quarter of 2010 continued to be highest in Nevada (15.98 percent) and Florida (14.65 percent),
With regard to regional forecasts, Florida is anticipated to experience the highest mortgage delinquency rate by the end of 2010, reaching as high as 18.2 percent.
http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/TransUnion-National-Mortgage-Delinquencies-Fall-174-Percent-in-2010-Opening-Quarter-1256842.htm
Miami single-family home sales were up 12 percent, to 1,530 from 1,372. The median sales price, however, fell 6 percent, to $191,200 from $203,700. Condo sales in Miami were up 46 percent, to 1,920 from 1,311. The median price slid 9 percent, to $136,100 from $149,000.
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2010/05/10/daily16.html
I agree with Gixxer that people under estimate the cost of homeowners insurance when it covers windstorm especially if you are on the water (Most Condos are on the Bay or Beach). Insurance department of Florida provides what you could expect to pay for premium for homeowners insurance in Miami-Dade County.
Homeowners insurance annual premiums for Miami-Dade County for a home with a replacement value of $150,000 range from $3,000 to $8,000 – Median is $4,052. Remember this is the average for all of Miami Dade County. If you looked to buy cover on the coast it would be much more expensive. In addition you would need to buy flood insurance as well (Quotes above do not include Flood cover – need this if you have a mortgage). So you can expect Homeowners insurance to run you around 3% of replacement value excluding flood insurance. If you looked at a home with replacement value around $400K that would equate to $12,000 per year.
Gix, you make some good points regarding HOA fees being relative to whatever your fees might be on a single family home. Howerver, I don’t really see it as comparing apples to apples. Living in a condo, some of those costs should be offset.
Drew,
Property insurance has more to do with the replacement value of the dwelling than it does with square footage. A 2,150 sqft home that cost $550,000 is going to be a lot more than a 2,150 sqft home that cost $200,000. In my talks for approximating cost I was told using 1.5% to 2% of the value of the home as a decent guide in Miami. And were talking about waterfront property so flood insurance is needed. Keep in mind that most insurers are not writing new policies in Miami, so you might get stuck with Citizens, which is the most expensive option by law and design! Easily much closer to the 2% range.
If you have a better estimate of a $550k+ oceanfront home I would love to hear it. Property taxes and insurance seem to be the biggest problems in Miami. I would love nothing more than to be off base on this. But from what I have been reading things are only going to get worse.
computer con,
your link says:
“Results indicate that the real estate market in Florida has hit bottom and is in the process of stabilizing across most property types,” said Timothy Becker, director of the University of Florida’s Bergstrom Center for Real Estate Studies, in a news release “Private capital – both foreign and domestic – continues to enter the state in search of quality investment deals.”
Thanks.
Scriv,
“Thus, while the investor will reject units in a particular building because the HOA fees are “too high” because they may adversely affect his/her profit derived from the unit, it is more likely that a bona fide purchaser looking to actually live in the unit will analyze the HOA fees in terms of opportunity costs they represent. Right?”
You can’t look at a condo unit that you wan’t to rent and say I want to buy and rent this unit but I don’t want to pay for the cost associated with insurance, pool maintenance, elevator maintenance, tennis courts, grounds keeping, etc. While some place may be somewhat inflating the these costs, there are definite cost associated with them. This should just be reflected in the rent charged. If you don’t want to worry about these cost then buy a unit a condo without a pool or at least with a pool that isn’t as nice like at Brickell 25.
But plain and simple if you want to live in this part of Brickell you have two choices, either a single family home or a condo. And as I have pointed out and you have noticed many people aren’t basing the value of these amenities off of the actual cost of the amenities but instead off of some random number that they think sounds good.
As I pointed out before at Brickell 25 the HOA fee is about .32/sqft. And with that you get an older pool and an older gym. At Atlantis the the HOA fee is .55/sqft. For that additional .23/sqft you get a newer nicer pool, a newer nicer gym, a jacuzzi, tennis courts, racquetball, and overall better common spaces. Just like if I were your next door neighbor and I had the same size house but better landscaping, with a larger pool, a jacuzzi and a membership to a better gym I would be paying more than you per square foot.
Wow,
insurance premiums based on replacement value??? You could knock me down with the feather…What a novel concept!
I swear, distance notwitstanding, I can hear Drew scratching his head…
agree with Gixxer that people under estimate the cost of homeowners insurance when it covers windstorm especially if you are on the water (Most Condos are on the Bay or Beach). Insurance department of Florida provides what you could expect to pay for premium for homeowners insurance in Miami-Dade County.
Homeowners insurance annual premiums for Miami-Dade County for a home with a replacement value of $150,000 range from $3,000 to $8,000 – Median is $4,052. Remember this is the average for all of Miami Dade County. If you looked to buy cover on the coast it would be much more expensive. In addition you would need to buy flood insurance as well (Quotes above do not include Flood cover – need this if you have a mortgage). So you can expect Homeowners insurance to run you around 3% of replacement value excluding flood insurance. If you looked at a home with replacement value around $400K that would equate to $12,000 per year.
Based on the Insurance Data I have seen I think you are closer to 2.5% to 3.0% of replacement value for homeowners isnurance premium. This would exclude Flood insurance.
“You can’t look at a condo unit that you wan’t to rent and say I want to buy and rent this unit but I don’t want to pay for the cost associated with insurance, pool maintenance, elevator maintenance, tennis courts, grounds keeping, etc.” – – Gixx
(sigh)
So many words. So little thought.
scriv
gixxer, agree whole heartedly with comments regarding hoa fees. i dont like them, but i also know i pay a similar out of pocket fee if i own a home and insure it. some problems with hoa is they dont always look for the most economical choices for insurance, maintenance, etc-so some of the buildings have inflated costs. but i am talking in the 5-10% range, so its not a huge deal. i like simple amenities, like a nice pool and patio. but things like the gym, sauna, tennis courts etc i would rather not have in my building. my preference would be to pay for that at a gym-prefer the social change. many people in these buidings are members of an external gym and pay for their own unused building gym. but gyms help the developer sell units.
Some interesting numbers in this thread. I find it hard to believe that people with $400,000 homes in Miami — which aren’t necessarily huge homes, even at post-bust prices — are paying $12,000 per year for insurance.
As for the overall issue of HOA fees, it’s safe to assume most Miami condos have bloated budgets. And how do I know this? Simply from the lack of disclosure. If these condos were operating like well-oiled machines, the condo boards would be posting their budgets and fees online for all to see. Instead, probably 7 condos out of 10 on the Miami MLS don’t even carry an accurate HOA fee listing.
Even worse, these are all new condos, so a lot of the fees have been kept artificially low by the developers in order to make the condos seem more affordable. As we’ve discussed for years, a lot of these condos have little or no reserves, even with monthly fees that are through the proverbial roof.
Bottom line, when it comes to HOAs, caveat emptor.
Joe says
“Some interesting numbers in this thread. I find it hard to believe that people with $400,000 homes in Miami — which aren’t necessarily huge homes, even at post-bust prices — are paying $12,000 per year for insurance.”
Joe below is a link setup by the Florida Government. It provides you annual premium estimates for Homeowners insurance in Miami-Dade County. What can effect the cost of homeowners insurance is not only the replacement value of your home and proximity to the ocean but the age and construction of your home. For example if you have an older home (Built prior to Hurricane Andrew – pre-1992 construction – reason building codes were greatly increased in the state of Florida after Hurricane Andrew) it would have met the building code at that time. So when that home gets destroyed in a hurricane the home needs to be rebuilt under todays building codes which are much more strict and obviously more expensive to construct the home. In addition the insurance premiums shown only cover you for windstorm and fire. They do not cover you for flood. If you live in a flood plain (which is a significant part of Miami) then you need to buy flood insurance as well. Flood insurance is sold thru the Federal government (FEMA – National Flood Insurance Program).
http://www.shopandcomparerates.com/
Ok, so Joe is a total moron. Once more.
And how do I know that Joe is a total moron?
From reading Joe’s musings.
When HOA dues are reasonable, then that in Joe’s warped mind means they are “artificially low”.
But once they are not “artificially low”, they automatically become “bloated”.
For Joe nothing is ever right. Joe finds “lack of disclosure” where there is none, since every year every condo budget is properly disclosed and itemized, and approved by the condo owners.
But the cutest part is when Joe is yapping about some $400 000 home… Hey, Joe, we are talking about $544 500 condo? Where did you get that $400 000 thing?
F-35 a.k.a. Gixxer 1000 — What the hell are you talking about? If you actually bothered to read the thread, you’d notice that someone above used $400,000 as the baseline value of a house for purposes of discussing insurance. I merely continued that discussion.
As for condo fees, if there’s so much disclosure and transparency, would you mind explaining why almost no condo fees or budgets are posted online for potential buyers to analyze? A lot of the newer Miami condos have a web site, yet few, if any, have their HOA fee info. posted. Why is this? As I mentioned above, probably 7 out of 10 condos on the Miami MLS have no HOA fee, or an inaccurate HOA fee, listed. If the fees are so reasonable, why not advertise that fact and use it as a selling point?
The reality is, Miami condo fees are way out of whack from a unit value-to-HOA fees standpoint. That’s why it’s taking years, and thousands of non-Miami buyers, to sell a paltry 22,000 condo units in a city that allegedly had a huge shortage of professional-caliber housing prior to the boom.
Joe,
be a man, admit you did use $400k number – which is totally irrelevant to the discussion – because with $544,5k you wouldn’t have a chance in hell with your flimsy arguments. Using $400k number was your only way of inserting yourself into the the conversation.
That’s exactly why you are not even trying to argue about the fact that insurance payments alone on a $544,5k single-family home in Miami would exceed HOA dues on equally-priced condo. Because you’d lose before even starting and that would mean that those HOA dues are not high at all. Maybe even low, given South Florida property insurance rates these days.
With condo docs, majority of large condo buildings do have their own websites and do post financial data online. You just have to be a resident to get access to it. But if you are not, you can get all of the budgetary info from the seller or from any decent real estate agent. Secret it isn’t.
Sometimes I am just wondering, how do you manage to be wrong on almost every subject you choose to discuss?
Joe,
For the millionth time F-35 and I are not the same person. If we were then Lucas would simply stop me like the other idiots. But I do agree however that you are a moron. Please reread the previous post. We were talking about a home with the REPLACEMENT VALUE of $400k. The replacement value does NOT include the value of the land that the house sits on. So we were talking about a house with a TOTAL value of about $550k.
As usual you misunderstood and then made this stupid statement:
“I find it hard to believe that people with $400,000 homes in Miami — which aren’t necessarily huge homes, even at post-bust prices — are paying $12,000 per year for insurance.”
No one argued that a $400k home would cost $12k for insurance. Again we were talking about a $550k home.
The reason the HOA fees aren’t publish is probably the same reason that a realtor doesn’t want you to go check and see how much insurance is going to cost. They want you to fall in love with the place before you see how outrageous this additional cost is going to be.
“The reality is, Miami condo fees are way out of whack from a unit value-to-HOA fees standpoint.”
Again based on what??? If HOA fees are out of whack then why are people purchasing a higher percentage of condos than single family homes?
HOA fees seem out of whack mostly to people like yourself who have no idea what it actually cost to own anything. When you look at the cost of ownership condos (including these crazy HOA fees that you speak of) are still cheaper than owning a comparable single family home. There are obviously some trade offs such as space and privacy.
Do the math. 3 bed room houses are slightly larger and selling for more than what this condo is asking. So again if you are looking to OWN anything in this area you choices are:
Condo ($544k)
$2,338 (mortage with 20% down)
$1,198 (HOA)
$900 (estimated taxes)
$4,436 Total
Single Family House ($650k comparable house across street with no ocean view)
$2,791 (mortage with 20% down)
$1,000 (insurance)
$1,083 (estimated taxes)
$4,874 Total
This does not include maintenance, gym membership, pool maintenance, etc.
I’m not saying there isn’t any waste in these HOA fees but most people critiquing these HOA fees have no idea what it cost to own anything.
How can you say these HOA fees are out of whack when you don’t even know how much it cost for insurance which is included in the HOA fee????????
It like a guy deciding between a comparable Ferrari and a Lamborghini and saying well when I consider the warranty, maintenance, etc. the Ferrari is cheaper. And the some idiot that owns a Ford Focus comes along and says that Ferrari is completely overpriced.
F-35 a.k.a. Gixxer 1000’s evil twin — Why don’t you learn a little reading comprehension before you pop off? I used $400k as the number because that’s the number “Why Bother” used in his post #20. Do you understand now? Or do I need to explain it again monosyllabically?
Further, if the HOA fee info. is so affordable, fair, and easy to access, please enlighten us as to why probably 7 condo listings out of 10 have no (or inaccurate) HOA fee info. listed in MLS. If the fees are such a great value, then why the hell aren’t the condos and developers ADVERTISING THEM AS SUCH?
——
Gixxer 1000 said: “HOA fees seem out of whack mostly to people like yourself who have no idea what it actually cost to own anything. …”
Seriously, do you stay up nights thinking of dumb things to say here? As I’ve said on this board many times, I’ve lived in condos for the last 15 years. I’m well aware of how condos work and equally aware of how mismanagement, waste, and cronyism often drives HOA fees way out of whack in terms of payment vs. value.
Beyond that, your use of statistics keeps proving the old saying about liars and statistics. It’s idiotic for you to say condo living is cheaper than SFH living when using different price points for the comparison. OF COURSE a $650,000 SFH costs more than a $544,000 condo. Did you think you were teaching us something with that asinine comment?
Further still, if you believe the baseline insurance cost for a freaking 32nd-floor condo is the same as it is for a SFH, you’re just nuts. There’s no sense even talking to you.
Joe said
“F-35 a.k.a. Gixxer 1000’s evil twin — Why don’t you learn a little reading comprehension before you pop off? I used $400k as the number because that’s the number “Why Bother” used in his post #20. Do you understand now? Or do I need to explain it again monosyllabically?”
Please reread my Post 21 I said the following
“If you looked at a home with replacement value around $400K that would equate to $12,000 per year.”
Yes Joe I used $400k but REPLACEMENT VALUE NOT SALE PRICE OF THE HOME! Joe I would say I completely agree with Gixxer 1000 and F-35 you seem to be completely clueless. As shocking as this might be to the people who read this blog – YES HOMEOWNERS INSUARANCE IS EXPENSIVE IN MIAMI AREA PARTICULARLY LIVING ON THE BAY OR BEACH BECAUSE OF HURRICANES AND FLOODING.
Even after reading my post he still can’t understand that a house with a replacement value of $400k probably has a sale price of about $550k. But regardless is the point that you claim all of these HOA fees or bloated. Instead of just making a broad meaningless statement why don’t you use actual facts. Use the unit in this thread for example. If the $1198 maintenance fee is to high then explain why it is. Break down the cost associated with this fee and tell me what they should be. How much should someone in this area with this price property pay for insurance, maintenance, pool maintenance, grounds keeping, gym membership, concierge, security, etc. Add all of those things up and tell me what they come to and how $1198 compares to that number. But I’ll guess as usual that you don’t have time for the actual facts.
Why Bother — WHY ARE YOU SHOUTING? I didn’t disagree with anything you said in the first place. ??????
——
Gixxer 1000 — First of all, when talking about insurance, replacement cost is the key issue, *NOT* purchase price. I know the land has value, but the freaking land doesn’t need to get replaced if a storm or flood hits (aside from maybe some landscaping), so why do you keep blathering on about sale price and land value?
Further, I can’t make comments on Atlantis’ specific condo fee because I don’t have access to their budget — which is PRECISELY the point I’ve been making all along.
I don’t know what your deal is, but you’re such a blind shill for all things related to Miami r.e. that you refuse to acknowledge some simple truths. Truth No. 1 is that there’s a lot of waste, fraud, mismanagement, and cronyism in the world of condos, and that’s ESPECIALLY true in Miami. Truth No. 2 is that almost no Miami condos make their budgetary info. publicly available, so performing a line-by-line analysis, as per your request, is all but impossible.
I keep asking and you keep dodging: If these condo fees are such a GREAT VALUE, then why the hell are the developers, condo boards, and r.e. agents not ADVERTISING THEM AS SUCH? Why do they go out of their way to bury the real numbers?