Miami Condo Market Highlighted on "Today Show"
March 17, 2010 by Lucas Lechuga
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There are many great opportunities if you have the cash or financing.
Still a long way to go, market will improve once labour market recovers and that will take at least a few years.
“Marquis nears 50% cut” (From MIAMITODAY March 18 edition)………Developer and bank have moved a long way in order to move the inventory…..”Marquis is to hold an open house for brokers Friday and Saturday and opens sales to the
public April 9.”
I will say it again. For the Brickell/Downtown/Park West/Pace Park corridor. The bottom in prices is in.
BTW – Regarding the post from this Christine in a post yesterday who said that she had purchased at Everglades Condo the criticism was a bit rough. First of all she said that she (an attorney i believe) and her husband had done their homework and due diligence. You beat her up pretty good saying she should cancel because Everglades is in “Distress”. Well Duh – isn’t every building down here in distress including Infinity (in receivership), Wind (foreclosure). Met One (forced to bulk sales), Axis, 900 Biscayne (bulk sales), Marina Blue(still with original flippers in units and bulk sales) And of course we all know that Icon is in distress. An arguement could be made that with the Everglades building in Chapter 11 may be in better shape coming out of the bankruptcy than lets say Icon or any of these other buildings for the simple reason that they were able to shed a considerable amount of debt in Chapter 11 thus in a better financial position than lets say Icon. Isn’t that the purpose of filing a Chapter 11? Secondly no issue with flippers shadow inventory overhanging the building. And as far as the quality of the construction – I have toured almost every building down here and the remarks that Everglades is not up to snuff are ridiculous. Four or five notches in quality and amenities above buildings like One Miami, Mint,Axis,Infinity,1800Club, and Marina Blue. And only one or two notches below Epic, 900 Biscayne or Icon. She mentioned Value so I’m assuming she got a pretty nice building for a great price since she didn’t mention her price. I would challenge anyone to tour the building before you make remarks to her like she should cancel. Unless of course your like Carlos who compares every building to Santa Maria or Apogee. Christina if you did get a good price and you and your husband did thorough diligence then don’t listen to misinformed bloogers to make your decision.
Kramer,
what is your opinion about Marquis?
Christina,
Get out of Everglades. It is a dump and in foreclosure.
I am sorry Kramer if you cant live like me in these buildings.
However, I am an investor and have toured every single building.
Everglades is a dump!
Carlos,
condoreports.com says that Everglades is healthier than 60% of condos in Miami, while Isola – arguably the ugliest condo in Miami and the one you recommended – is in the bottom 5% of the sickest ones.
You’ve got a funny way of doing business )
Christina,
I wouldn’t pay much attention to carlos. If you made your homework, congrats. Looks like fantastic building in fantastic location.
Euroman – Marquis first rate first class building in every aspect. Swiss Luxury mentions that they are dealing. If the highway next door doesn’t bother you and you are an end user this building will bounce back price wise at a much faster rate than most.
Carlos – Your a fraud and a liar to boot. As Euroman mentioned above you recommended Isola (hehe) to a poster (which i have also toured). Your credibility is shot right there. Strike One. Everglades is not in foreclosure. Strike two on your credibility in this forum and rates a 8 in quality and amenities. Strike Three – your out. No one believes you anymore. So we now know just to skip over Carlos comments. Conversation over – with phony liars. Btw – I would pay extra to NOT live next door to you : ). Which I can afford also. Bye Bye……….
Euroman,
I do not like Isola at all, but as far as your large budget goes 250 sqft demanding high floors, 2 parking spaces, water views, that is what you can afford.
You should do better research: everglades is in foreclosure and the building is not even finished yet! They have just run out of money.
You are not even here: if you take the buildings in Miami from what they look from outside or the pictures posted in websites, you are in for big trouble.
As I have said and many other posters, this is just sound advice: I hope she is happy with her decision and everything works out for her.
Waterviews alone do not make up for the awful location everglades is in: there is no neighborhood around, unless you consider the hobos and the overtown near by a neighborhood.
Bur what do you know about overtown??? You arean Euroman.
Stop being so snotty, get your a– down here and come check it out for yourself!
carlos,
LOL,
don’t argue with me, argue with condoreports.com.
Kramer,
thanks, appreciate it.
Marquis is an excellent building in an awful area. Location is number one when it comes to real estate. If u enjoy living next to the highway and share the streets with hobos then it’s great.
It is a fantastic building in a bad location.
Kramer, if u read the posts you’ll see why isola was mentioned. People who want huge apartments with waterviews in high floors and extra storage and do not have a large budget have to compromise at something.
I have no interested in Isola at all. I was offered a Ph 2 bd with direct waterviews for less than 200k and was not even interested.
I guess people have to be realistic about what they can afford and not think that just because Re is in distress here they can buy a Oceanfront penthouse for a dime.
It was not my intention to be rude to you. Please accept my apologies.
Carlos,
You must be referring to PH-15 at Isola. It was listed for $197,010 in January and spent 6 days on the market before going under contract. The appliances were missing and had obvious mold in the washer/dryer closet. Guess the sales price. $260,000!!! It was a nice unit but definitely not worth $260,000.
The area around marquis, ten museum, etc is sketchy right now. but remember it is across the street from what will become a major bayside park in an urban area. and it is next door to a beautiful performing arts center. been there many times and it is absolutely wonderful. this location and those four towers in a row will become extremely valuable in due time. it may take 5 plus years, but it will happen. i am in the market for a livable place today, and dont have the extra cash to sink into a multiyear investment. but if i did, the condos next to the pac would be my choice for greatest upside-especially if you can get them at a nice discount today.
Carlos,
I’m certainly no Miami expert, but wasn’t South Beach also a hoboland not that far ago?
Maybe it wasn’t, but that’s what I have read somewhere. Then money poured in, neighbourhood was transformed, and people said: “Man , I wish I bought property there when everything was still dirt cheap”.
And that’s why I’m looking at the Edgewater/ Downtown area. Overtown is being slowly depopulated by gentrification (population collapsed 75% from its peak to 2000, according to Wikipedia, and is probably even lower today), and may well seize to exist as what you think it is soon enough.
Well, anyways, as I understand from your postings, you cannot stand Miami. Something about that town irritates the hell out of you. And that’s what puzzles me about so many people living in Miami. Just sheer hatred for their own city. Does anyone knows what it is? What is it about Miami that creates so much rage (or disdain) among so many of its own inhabitants? Is Miami really such a terrible place to live in?
Anybody has any ideas?
Kramer:
Your post (#3, above): nicely done.
Fair, balanced and well thought out.
scriv
Euroman,
Pay no attention to Miami locals. It will take out-of-towners to rebuild/re-invent Miami. It was Northerners that created Miami Beach and Northerners who re-built the hoboland of 1980s SouthBeach. Read the book, Miami Babylon for more details. The locals have no clue what assets they have, how to value them, what the long term potential of these properties are. I agree with Gables, Biscayne/Performing Arts center area and many other downtown areas will be unrecognizable (for the better) in 5-10 years and locals will wonder why they didn’t see it coming. Bullish on downtown because the $/ft gap is too large between it & South Beach.
“Everglades is not in foreclosure”
Bank of America filed for foreclosure on the building but the developer immediately declared bankruptcy to avoid/delay foreclosure. Still in court now so you are technically correct, they are not in foreclosure.
If the bank gets the building back, who knows what course of action they’ll take. They could firesale the units, or just sit on them for years, or dump them on the rental market to bring in some cash flow. Even if the developer wins control of the building, there is no telling what course of action they’ll take once B of A is forced to let them drop prices even further.
With that kind of uncertainty about a buildings future, why not buy in a more stable building? Hell, two of the creditors who were owed among the most $$ in the bk filing were the condo associations for each tower. A sure sign of a healthy building when it owes six figures to its own HOA.
I wish Christine the best of luck, if she did her due diligence and is ok with the risks involved, great.
Let me share some thoughts why some of the locals do not like Miami because I spoke to some of them. They were not born in Miami but moved there for different reasons like health issues, warmer climate, business, retirement and live there now. They all recognize that it is a very beautiful city. They recognize that they can afford more(from the point of real estate) instead of living in NY or CA. All of people I spoke to were from NY, Boston, San Franscisco, LA. Most of them are upper middle class. Here are their reasons of being negative about the city: people are too flashy(primitive in a lot of ways), shallow, live beyond their means, lack of intellectualism. . IT exists in other cities as well but in Miami seems to be a prevailing theme.
As far as I am concerned I see Miami as a very attractive city to have your second home.
Euroman:
Either you love Miami or hate it. Visiting Miami for a week will rarely leave you with a bad impression. Actually trying to get stuff done and observing the corruption first hand takes a few months and it breaks people. I associate with a lot of newly transferred executives and the majority of them (especially who live in the general city area, not in Davie) cannot believe how difficult it is to live in this city.
In general there are awesome deals out there that will appreciate in a few years time. But will the county and city have funds to build parks, keep the streets safe and continue what they are currently doing? No. For the last two years there have been massive budget cuts and it will continue for the next couple years. These budget cuts are already past the lazy employees and are starting to cut into services.
With all that said, if I could buy the unit I am renting in Met1 for the price the tax assessor says it is worth, I would seriously consider that.
South Beacher,
Lara,
very interesting, many thanks.
I guess many great cities are also infuriating on many levels. But Miami seems to drive many Miamians crazy in a very particular way. Miami Herald comments section seethes with rage, predictions of doom, etc. A lot of folks appear relishing city’s troubles.
Maybe the hatred is just a result of unrequited love, who knows. ) ?
Lara,
do you have any info as to why Quantum North’s HOAs are higher than Quantum South’s (70c vs 55c/sq ft?) ?
At least that’s what condoreports.com says.
Euroman,
I’ve noticed something similar and here is my take. Miami and South Florida in general has a huge problem with education. They’re behind the national average and WAY behind large metro areas. As a result you have a large portion of the population (roughly 80%) who are uneducated and work low skill jobs. As we were discussing before its a city of have and have-nots. Here is some old salary information from the US Census:
2000 Income: $53,574 (average), $37,509 (median)
2001 Income: $50,261 (average), $35,241 (median)
2002 Income: $53,361 (average), $36,809 (median)
2003 Income: $51,924 (average), $36,089 (median)
You can see while the median is very low the average is actually very high. That’s because salaries are not evenly distributed and instead there are a lot more people below the average than above it.
So basically you have a city where 70%+ of the people are disgruntled because they’re not educated and have no access to a higher paying job. It probably wouldn’t be that bad if the problem wasn’t compounded by the fact that these people who are in the majority (have-nots) have to watch the people in the minority (haves) not only prosper but do so in a flamboyant way. For example in the Midwest because everything is spread out you have large middle class areas where these people do not have to see or interact with upper class people. So they don’t have a constant daily reminder that others have a lot more than them. Not the case in Miami. This leads to more people “keeping up with the Joneses”, which in return only saddles them with more debt and less opportunity for upward mobility.
This to me leads to the whole Miami is flashy and has no substance mentality. To these people what good is the weather, beaches, fancy cars, etc. if they personally can’t afford to have them.
So then you have the upper middle class people from out of state that Lara is referring to. They move here because it’s affordable as compared to there original city (NY, LA, Boston, etc.). But when they get here there is no real middle class that they’re used to. Instead of they’re neighbor being a college graduate instead they’re someone who is actually living beyond their means. So while they’re in the same neighborhood with similar cars, etc. they are actually very different. This speaks both to the intellectualism and flashy ways.
So you see a lot of people say you’ll either love or hate Miami. Which essentially means if you make good money you’ll love it but if you don’t make good money you’ll hate it.
I’m amazed that a comment condemning a certain building or neighborhood results in hasty generalizations that such commenter “hates Miami” or is “miserable in Miami.” Its possible to be opinionated about these things but still enjoy the city and have no intention of leaving. One guy loves South Beach and hates Midtown. Or vice versa. Who cares? Its just an opinion based on personal preference.
Personally I’m at the stage in my life that condo living doesn’t make any sense to me or my family that’s why I live in Pinecrest. I’ve lived in condos on the Beach, Gables and Grove and would never do it again. Again, just a personal preference. I like having a yard, a driveway and more than 2 bedrooms. And not being confined to a box. And not having to deal with valets. And I believe views are over-rated. (I could go on and on…) I’m sure others on this blog feel the same way.
So I’ll take a skeptical or pessimistic approach to an analysis of the Miami condo market. Does that mean I hate living here? Of course not. I enjoy it and will probably live here the rest of my life. The city has many drawbacks – but also many benefits that usually outweigh the disadvantages.
And Lara #18- very true also, esp about the lack of intellectualism. That’s singlehandedly the most frustrating thing about living in this city- dealing with complete idiots as you go about your daily business. On top of that, the idiots are usually the rudest too. No civility. But I think that’s the tradeoff for living in a multi-ethnic community.
Lara
Nicely said.
Miami is great and bad for the reasons you have mentioned. However, if you come from Manhattan, San Francisco, Chicago or any other main developed and professional city, you cant take Miami much more than a second home city.
Miami would probably be the best place to live should the city provide opportunities for offices and companies to move down here and offer job positions for people with higher income and educational level.
Right now it is a city filled with poor illiterate immigrants who have nothing to offer to the city and take advantage of federal and local prigeams, wasting money that should be spent in improving the city.
Guys,
Here is my 2 cents as a person who recently bought a condo in Miami in brickell area as my perm home and plans to live in the condo long term.
I see your points and yes people either love it or hate it. I want to love it, although I see allot of negatives too.
Living in a condo in Miami, is allot different from living in my last house in a nice clean suburb in the mid-central state that I came from.
Miami is ALOT better then 15 years ago, and I know it will be ALOT better 15 years from now. I think we just need to be patient and except things as they are and look forward to things getting better in the coming years.
In meanwhile, I have already strated to work with the city of miami folks to make my area of miami a better place to live in. They are not the most effective folks to work with, however they have addressed some of issues in my area, but it’s slow going.
If more peolpe who live in the city would put some pressure on the city to address the issues they will slowing resolve them.
Drew,
I know for myself I wasn’t talking about people being negative about Miami because of this blog. And I got the impression that since Euroman mentioned the comments section of the Miami Herald neither was he. I ask questions on other forums where people just talk about Miami in general and I’d I guess that 80% of the people in those forums, newspapers article responses, etc. speak at though they absolutely hate Miami. Sort of like when I posted that 20% of people in Miami-Dade have a college degree (which is very low) people quickly shot it down that it had to be lower. A lot of people in Miami have serious resentment towards it.
Gixxer 1000,
You said:
So then you have the upper middle class people from out of state that Lara is referring to. They move here because it’s affordable as compared to there original city (NY, LA, Boston, etc.). But when they get here there is no real middle class that they’re used to. Instead of they’re neighbor being a college graduate instead they’re someone who is actually living beyond their means. So while they’re in the same neighborhood with similar cars, etc. they are actually very different. This speaks both to the intellectualism and flashy ways. So you see a lot of people say you’ll either love or hate Miami. Which essentially means if you make good money you’ll love it but if you don’t make good money you’ll hate it.
— another excellent comment – this is exactly what I have experienced since I moved here.
Gixxer 1000,
ah, the frustrations of a deeply materialistic city!
Agreed.
Drew,
yours “the idiots are usually the rudest too” is priceless.
Could be very revealing.
Euroman,
RE: your question about which lines at the Lexi face downtown fom the other thread. I posted this there, but it seems this is where people are posting now so I’ll repost it in case you missed it.
“02 (faces SE) and 12 (faces SW) are corner units with warp around balconies that face downtown. 01 (faces NE) and 11 (faces NW) are in the same line but 01 will only have a downtown view if you are on the wraparound part.
I’ve got an 02.”
BTW, regarding this convo of whether you love or have Miami…..count me in as one of the folks in the ‘love it’ category. I think this place is awesome and really couldn’t imagine living anywhere else.
Edit: Meant to say “hate” in my last post. Typo.
Lol – Well then you can’t say that “Miamians” are fearful, negative, shallow, materialistic, etc. if indeed none of us (most) are from some other place to begin with. Didn’t we bring those traits with us?
There used to be a poster in here with the handle La La that often commented that the appeal for her in living in Miami (Brickell) was in watching a “young” city evolve. And for me also. That is the appeal. Imagine living in New York City or Boston or Chicago 100 or more years ago when they were just starting to emerge as a great American city. Were they not a rough and tumble Boss Tweed hodgepodge of different cultures and similarities and differences of opinion. In Miami the great Condo meltdown only makes our story that much more interesting. Thus our lively debates on which part of town or which building is worthy. But like La La – I like watching the evolution with three steps forward and two steps back and then four steps forward etc. Does anyone here disagree that Miami has and will continue to evolve into a great American city – yet you have to have the stomach (So To Speak) to witness it all : ). Even though i can – I would not live anywhere else.
The only three issues I have with Miami area are: (1) Very poor/slow service (pervasive), (2) Bad drivers, and (3) Dishonest people in real estate. You just have to learn to live with it and learn to honk on occasion….I don’t think I ever honked at another driver in 10 years until I moved here! Although I try to do it politely even if they are meandering around a six lane road talking on the cell phone like they are driving in a parking lot. Oh well.
Looks like there is a double dip in housing prices??? Or more accurately, no double dip but “just a blip” on the way down? It will be interesting to watch interest rates and their affect on housing prices in the second half of 2010. Real mortgage backers will demand higher interest rates….more interesting will be if fed govt comes out decisively to not guarantee loans through the FMs and others.
Renter Tom,
leaving aside the fact that “double dip” may be just a figment of your imagination,
what price would you suggest I look for if the Marquis drops its prices?
DJ,
thank you,
I guess I’ll be on a lookout for 01 and 02 lines.
I did go to Google Street to “drive” through your neighbourhood, and it felt almost like I was in the Keys. )
Kramer,
That’s part of the reason why I want to study real estate development and work in Miami. Think of the impact and change that can happen over the next 15 years. It seems a lot more interesting than simply constantly renovating what’s already there.
Short term plans include:
Downtown Convention/Conference center of the Americas
Redevelopment of Bicentennial Park
Completing Baywalk and Riverwalk
Implementing Waterborne trasportation
Enhancing Brickell avenue streetscape
Redevelopment of Flagler street
Connecting and promoting parks and open spaces
Making city more pedestrian friendly
Promoting more public transit (expand metromover, implement streetcars and trollys)
Improving inland connections to waterfront
More daytime dockage
Encouragement of more dinning and retail along Brickell ave and Biscayne Boulevard
I actually think the real estate bust was the best thing that could of happened to Miami. Migration to Florida from within the United States not only stopped but it reversed during the housing boom. In 2008 there was a net loss of 9,000 people when only looking at domestics. As housing becomes more affordable this trend will likely reverse. And thanks to the condo bust those Northeast folks (NY has always been the biggest contributor) will now have vibrant downtown as an option as well.
What do you guys think of Brickell on the River North tower? I am considering uying a 2/2 for $330,000.
Renter Tom,
I’m curious. What measure are you using to track a double dip. The percent rise or fall for market is usually tracked by the median sales price? What do you expect this measures to fall to?
I’m trying to get an understanding of what your thinking is. For example in February you posted the article that predicted the 30% drop by Sept 30th specifically for Miami. Here are the Median home prices for 2010:
Jan $199,700
Feb $199,925
Mar $199,497 (so far)
A 30% drop (actually it was 29.2%) would put Septembers median sales price somewhere around $140k. Do you really believe anything remotely close to this is going to happen?
You said:
“I’ve been watching the Miami market for two years now…it is buyer’s beware in this “wild west”. I still see a lot of overpriced listings that simply don’t move except for some price declines.”
I agree with this statement. The problem is that just because a lot of stuff is still overpriced and needs to be marked down doesn’t mean that what is actually selling is getting any cheaper. It’s the median sales price that is tracked not the median asking price.
In order for the median price to go down, prices below the median are going to have to be sold for less. You can sell $2 million dollar condos for $400k and the $200k median wont budge a bit. I think a lot of people are confusing median and average. Do you really see the sub $200k market going lower?
Also to be specific, this information is for all homes in Miami-Dade. Downtown condos don’t have to follow the same pattern. So when you say double dip are you talking Miami condos or all of Miami?
I wanted to clarify one more point. For the median to go down your not actually only concerned about the houses below the median. You’re actually only concerned with the houses JUST below the median. So for example if you are selling 10 houses a month, the only houses that will affect the median are the 5 and 6 house sold each month. Example:
10 houses:
$50k, $80k, $90k, $180k, $190k, $210, $250k, $400k, $1m, $20m
Here the median sales price would be $200k (the average of the two middle numbers $190 and $210).
If you started selling all the high end stuff cheaper the median wouldn’t change:
$50k, $80k, $90k, $180k, $190k, $210, $220k, $300k, $350k, $500k
Here the median would still be $200k.
In fact while selling all the expensive stuff cheaper you could actually go up:
$50k, $80k, $90k, $180k, $200k, $230, $220k, $300k, $350k, $500k
Here the median would be $215k (average of $200k and $230k)
So even if the stuff at the bottom goes cheaper still nothing changes:
$10k, $30k, $100k, $170k, $190k, $210k, $220k, $300k, $350k, $500k
Still a median of $200k.
Right now the median is at $200k because that is the price point that the majority of people are purchasing at. If you have 10 sales each month and 6 of them are near $200k then it doesn’t matter what price the others sale at.
$200k, $200k, $200k, $200k, $200k, $200, X, X, X, X.
You can make those X’s anything you want, the median (middle) will always be $200k.
So the question is if most people right now can afford a $200k house then what will happen to change what most people can afford.
Gixxer 1000 – Based on your posts, I have to say, you’re gonna make a helluva bureaucrat when you land your city planner job…perfect fit for Miami, a lot of talk. Then if that doesn’t work out you could become a marine biologist and assist George Costanza. LOL
Gixxer 1000,
when Renter Tom says there is a “double dip”, objective reality doesn’t matter all that much, if at all.
After “double dip” there will be “triple”, “quadruple” and other “dips”, statistics be damned.
You coming with all these numbers from real life – things otherwise known as “facts” – how rude…
Gixxer 1000,
you wrote:
“Also to be specific, this information is for all homes in Miami-Dade. Downtown condos don’t have to follow the same pattern. So when you say double dip are you talking Miami condos or all of Miami?”
From what I could gather so far, Renter Tom is talking only about the condos that people on this blog actually want to buy.
No matter what the price is – it’s going down.
Renter Tom,
Actually I put a lot of information (sales number, stats, etc) behind my opinion so I doubt I’d be a bureaucrat. Come to think of it I don’t think I’ve actually ever disagreed with you and seen you refer to facts in an argument outside of maybe quoting the opinion of someone else as fact.
But when Sept 30th gets here and median sales prices isn’t 30% lower, I’m sure your answer will be very bureaucratic.
From what I read when you first came here you were concerned about inventory, supply, price per square foot, etc. It’s what lead you to make the smart move and rent. Now you don’t even care about facts. It’s like you’ve been reading blogs for two years and you convinced yourself that you or any other of these fools can actually predict the market. WTF man, snap out of it. Analyze the data and see where we are at and where were headed, anything beyond that is a shot in the dark. And stop letting these people fool you. That Moody’s 30% prediction that you posted. Guess what, around Nov and December ’09 the median price was dropping 4% per month. If you follow the trend out until Sept 30 the would give you a total of a 30% drop. So they repackage current information in a different form and then sell it to people through the media. Just like the whole “prices wont hit past peaks until 2030 deal”. Which was basically saying “buy now and your house will appreciate 100% in 20 years”.
I know a lot of the condos in the price range you’re looking at still have a ways to go. But seriously what reasoning do you have that the low end condos are going lower? I keep asking you for facts to support you theories for an “intellectual” discussion about it and you keep giving me hearsay and taking personal swipes. Maybe this is what Lara was talking about. I completely understand that I may have the WRONG position. In fact I’d like to be wrong because it would possibly mean cheaper housing for me. So I’m open to anyone providing me with contradictory information or flaws in my argument.
Rentertom – Hey hey hey. Don’t be raggin on my buddy George Costanza. Anyway he always wanted to be a city planner or an architect. Remember the kid he mentored right after Susan died : ).
C O S T A N Z A A R C H I T E C T S M I A M I
completed projects in Miami:
Capital Lofts
Science Meuseum at Museum park
Art Museum at Museum park
Bayview Market
Loft III
Paramount Beach
Miami Center
gixxer, dont come to miami. you will not last. you have a strong desire to use logic and facts to conduct your business. it does not work that way down here. and it will drive you crazy. you think you can beat the system if you play by the rules-but the system will eat you alive. trust me. been there done that. only come down here to do business if you are willing to operate by a very very flexible set of rules. this allows the bad people to get out of jams they dont like-to the detriment of those who follow the rules. and you my friend are a rules follower. i used to be one as well…
Gixxer,
If nothing works out, you can always become a hand model. After all, everyone is a model in Miami.
Gixxer 1000,
looks like some people are trying to shut you up by claiming that Miami is an alternate universe where neither common sense, nor simple math apply.
That’s how people are trying to argue when they have no valid arguments.
Funny stuff.
I guess you have won this one.