The Brickell Rental Market Under a Microscope
March 2, 2011 by Lucas Lechuga
Obviously, not all neighborhoods and condo developments are created equal. Factors such as price, location, views, quality and recommendations from peers help determine rental demand. As a result, one would assume that demand can vary greatly from building to building and even neighborhood to neighborhood. Which condo developments are the leaders when it comes to rental demand and which are the laggards? More importantly, which buildings should we expect to see prices climb in the near future?
In this first segment, I decided to analyze the Brickell rental market to answer the above questions. Below, you will find a spreadsheet containing rental data for various condo developments in Brickell. Click the link below the spreadsheet to view it in its entirety.
Brickell Rental Market as of March 01, 2011
Columns C through G show the number of available rentals pertaining to each condo development grouped by number of bedrooms. Column I displays the total number of rentals available in each condo development while column J shows the total number of units within that development. I debated whether or not to include column K, the number of available rentals over the total number of units in the development expressed as a percentage, because the figure can be deceiving in buildings where developer inventory remains which has neither been sold nor rented. This is the case in buildings such as Icon Brickell and Infinity at Brickell. Regardless, I decided to include the figure because it can provide additional insight in buildings where this is not the case.
The main objective in creating this spreadsheet was to calculate months of inventory for each condo development. This can be seen in column M. Months of inventory was calculated by dividing total units available for rent by the monthly average number of units rented over a 3-month period from November 16, 2010 to February 15, 2011. You may be wondering why I did not include closed rental data from the past two weeks in determining the monthly average. I have noticed that it can take real estate agents days, and even weeks, to change the status of a rental in the MLS from pending to rented. As a result, I felt that the average would be skewed to the downside and not be an accurate representation of the Brickell rental market. Furthermore, if I had to venture a guess, I would also say that it is highly likely that around 10 percent of the total number of units available for rent are in fact no longer available. In this case, the listing agent has yet to change the status from available to pending.
Regardless, a lot can be ascertained from the spreadsheet above. In my opinion, any building with 1.5 months of inventory or less has a solid rental market. 1060 Brickell, The Plaza on Brickell and Vue at Brickell are standouts with absorption rates hovering around one month. I expect rentals prices in these developments to continue to rise in the near future. For those in the market to lease a condo in one of these developments, I advise that you act quickly and put your best foot forward when making an offer.
According to the spreadsheet, there is currently 2.29 months of rental inventory available in Brickell. Some may expect this number to increase as more units from Icon Brickell and Infinity at Brickell hit the rental market. Of course, this will all depend on how quickly the units become available and at what pace demand absorbs them. Only time will tell, but I plan to watch Brickell rental market closely and post updates on a monthly basis.
I would love to hear your thoughts and comments.
As a renter at 1060 I think this data sums up my experience. First I decided that I wanted to rent in Brickell. Then I walked around Brickell to see what buildings were in the best location for me. I was more concerned with Mary Brickell Village, Publix and the metro so I looked at buildings on the west end (Axis, 1060, etc.). I also looked at a couple closer to the water (Icon, 500, Plaza, etc.) for comparison. The combination of the location, layout and amenities led me to choose 1060.
So I figured because there were so many units available in Brickell I was in position to low-ball. After all, your list shows over 150 2 bedrooms available. I was completely wrong. In reality there were only a few 2 bedroom units available in 1060. I missed out on the first unit because I didn’t act fast enough (it rented 2 days after I looked at it). I eventually got the same unit at the full price as the one I lost. Which was well over the prices posted on craigslist.
Because all these units were owned by different people in different buildings I wasn’t really competing for the 150+ 2 bedrooms available, I was competing for the few 2 bedrooms available in the building I wanted to be in.
So I’d guess that most people would have the same experience. By the time they narrow down buildings by their price range, preferred location, etc. they’re down to a few buildings and a limited amount of inventory.
And then the people who don’t have $6000 to give up front for first month, last month and security deposit on have a few places to turn to. Like Camden Brickell which is 96% occupied and raising rents just as high as these condos.
Developers are chomping at the bit to get going on multifamily rental buildings in Brickell but due to current financing conditions (slowly getting better) and the regulatory hurdles of the approval process we wont see any new product for years.
I think there are two additional factors to take into account.
A) Many rentals don’t get listed on MLS. We see this in our building often, where rentals aren’t advertised through brokers and as such never end up on the MLS. Not sure how many there are, but certainly enough not to be ignored.
B) Units where an association is renting a delinquent unit under the new law also wouldn’t show up. I know for a fact that there are 8 of these in our building, going at market rents or better. I am sure there are many in other buildings as well.
Chris,
I don’t think A and B will matter too much. The spreadsheet above shows how fast inventory is being absorbed by the market. You’re correct that many condos available for rent do not show up on the MLS. However, this also means that inventory does not show up on the MLS as a closed rental after it has been rented. In other words, the number of available units may in fact be greater if non-MLS units were included but so would the number of rented units per month. If anything, my guess is that units not on the MLS are absorbed by the market at a faster pace than rentals on the MLS because prices are typically lower since commissions are not paid.
If rents are any indication…it still doesn’t make sense to buy in these buildings. $2000 a month rent points to a healthy sales price around $200-$250k depending on your tax situation, current rates, and HOA dues. I believe 2 bedrooms are selling in excess of that by at least 20% right now….so that to me indicates MIA still has 20% downside in values to go before this makes any sense at all.
Forget about the premium that should exist for being a landlord, this is just break even!
Not to open up the “renters” can of worms again….
But now that renters are starting to move in on my floor, already there are issues, like them allowing their little loud dogs running down the hall barking.
However, I wonder if the problem is not a renter thing, but rather just how peolpe are today. Folks just are not considerate of others and they don’t like to follows building rules.
I like the area, I live at the Axis and the noise level from the bars feels really loud in my unit. When I go to visit my friend who lives at 1060 Brickell we cant even sit outside in the balcony because the noise is so loud that we cant carry a conversation. When I went to visit another friend who lives at the Vue at Brickell and he told me “the noise level in his condo from Segafredo is awfull”. All of us had called the police and reported to the city but to not avail nothing has being done.
Since you are in the real estate business you should address this issue to our comissioners. The restaurants should be more respectful with the residents working hours, If they want to keep their music at full blast they should do it indoors and with a sound proofing sistem that dont bother others. I dont think is fair to buy a condo for 300k plus to end living in a Carnaval kind of neighborhood.
I believe us the residents from this area should get together and agressively demand our representatives to enforce the sound zoning laws. It does not make sense to allow this abusive noise in a residential area when people have to go to work the next day.
If in the short term the owners of the businesses are profiting, in the long term they are certainly trashing the area for us the property owners. Sooner Brickell will be like a cheap Ocean Drive in where people who does not lives here come to get drunk, get loud, orinate in the streets and trash our neighborhood. I love my unit, I love the location, I simple cant understand why the noise is permitted. If I could reverse the time I will buy anywhere else, just because of the noise.
For example… Right now is Wednesday is 1:45 AM & the noise from the bars below are so loud that I am writing here instead of sleeping.
Thanks.
owneratinfinity — You’re probably getting hit with the double whammy: Renters aren’t as respectful as onwers, and Miami is generally a rude place to begin with (i.e., consistently ranked among the rudest places in America).
Robert,
When I first moved in my condo over a year ago I raised holy hell about the noise with the police and I met with several members of the city including Marc S, the commissioner for Brickell.
I spend a ton of time on trying to get them to enforce the noise rules. Segafredo’s outside speakers are the problem for my infinity building.
The rule is that if you can hear it from over 100 feet away they have to turn it down.
I wasted a LOT of time with the city of miami with this and they still never enforced it. They care more about the businesses then the residents of the condo building around it.
I KNOW for sure, if you get enough peolpe in the area together I can get the city to enforce the rules, but it will be a major pain in my ass for me to do this.
People are now moving into the east side of my infinity building so as more folks complaint about the noise in my building the better, but I think I will have to leader to solve the noise issues in brickell with the city. (I worked for the city back in 2009, and I know alot of the players)
This I really don’t want to do again, I am WEAK from dealing with them.
My condo is on the 50 and 51st floors and the noise from Segafredo can be heard in my condo when I have my patio door open. However, when I shut my door I don’t hear it, thanks god!
Therefore, I have given up on the city on them enforcing the 100 foot rule. I just shut my door when Segafredo’s outside music starts to get loud.
I do know that folks in my building facing east on lower floors do hear the music even when their doors are shut.
Here is a link to Marc S web site displaying the 100 rule and some text from this site about noise.
There have been a number of calls to my office and the City with questions and concerns about the City of Miami noise ordinance. This is a new informational piece regarding the City’s noise ordinance that was crafted by the City Attorneys’ office and put together through my office and GSA.
The memo explains the regulatory scheme in place regarding noise/music, etc. and is intended to be used by city personnel and members of the public as a point of reference. MUSIC FROM BARS, CLUBS AND OTHER BUSINESS ESTABLISHMENTS The playing of music between the hours of 11:00 pm and 7:00 am the following day is unlawful if it is audible from the outside of the building so as to disturb the comfort of persons in any dwelling or residence.
http://www.ci.miami.fl.us/district2/docs/Noise_card_2010_v4.pdf
Calling the police to lower the music is a big waste of time, they just turn up the music when the police leave. It’s all BS.
THE 100 foot RULE is on Marc’s site yet the city doesn’t enforce. I suggest that you contact Marc S, directly and demand that he and the city to enforce the rule.
It will not help much, but your need to try it,
However the only way the rule will be enforced is for several of the residents in the area to put together a formal complaint and met with Marc in person and make him have the city force the rule for all the businesses in the brickell area and tell him you don’t want the area to turn into another ocean drive with all that noise.
I would love for someone other then me to be the leader on this effort. I am still weak from dealing with them, however I would glad to take a supporting role.
Please Let me know what you find out after talking to Marc S.
Good luck, you will need it.
Robert.
When Marc fails you and he will—-
If you want to get a bunch of peolpe together, I will join you all at the miami city hall and we can picket there, with signs, saying ENFORCE THE NOISE RULES!! Also I we can contact the local news stations and they can put on the local news.
This battle can be won, however it will just take a lot of time and effort and will require a strong leader and a great effort from all.
Joe,
You are 100% right, I come from the mid-south and folks are different there. When the folks on my floor break the rules I do plan to ride the building management to enforce them on my floor.
If I was a renter I would not care as much, however being a owner I have skin in the game. The more you allow residents to break the rules the more they will do it. It’s the nature of some peolpe.
Plus I think many of folks who live in condos and apts are used to noise from other residents, so they don’t notice it or think it’s an issue.
However someone like me who came from a Single family house really notices the noise from folks on my floor.
If it really gets noisily on my floor, I hate to say it, but I can see that one day will came to decide that I paid too much for my place to deal with such nosily peolpe and sell my place.
I thought when you buy in a good building on a high floor where all the units are selling for over $300-320K you would be respective residents living on the floor, but it doesn’t look like that it case. Or maybe my standards are too high.
Since I don’t want a house any more, condos are my only choice. And if I want a great view like I have, I have to live in large building with lots of peolpe.
I see myself moving into a 55+ year old peolpe
building in boca raton,fl where they don’t allow renters, pets, noise and folks are forced to follow the rules.
I would like that, however I will need to wait nearly 20 years before I am old enough to live in one of those buildings.
Until then I got to deal with my place. I least when I go to sell my condo I will make some money on it.
Let me start of by saying that the music was a little loud last night, especially for a Wednesday. But you guys seem to be taking it a little far. To say that the noise is so loud that you can’t even carry on a conversation is completely untrue and makes it seem like you’re just saying things out of anger.
Obviously everyone is different. The windows at 1060 do a fairly good job blocking out the noise and I added thicker curtains that also help reduce sound noise. And the only reason I even noticed the noise was because last night I didn’t go to bed until 1:00 am. Had I gone to bed as usual around 11:30 pm I wouldn’t have even noticed it because it definitely isn’t enough wake me up.
It appears to me that you guys were pretty naïve in buying units in a city next to a developing entertainment area and hoping their wouldn’t be sound. Living in other metro areas like DC and NY these are common things you have to deal with. Out of all the condos in the Brickell area the only ones that would have any problems are 1060, Axis, Infinity, and Vue. And even among those condos you really only have to worry about the units facing MBV or Segafredo’s and Brickell Irish pub. The value that this nightlife brings far outweigts the people whom it annoys.
If you’re personally someone who can’t deal with the noise then you probably should have bought a unit farther away from the action.
Being close to the entertainment is a benefit but it comes at a cost.
Once again, here’s Gixxer 1000 — the guy with a whopping 5 months of living in Miami — coming in to tell others they’re wrong.
I don’t have sympathy for people who buy a house next to an airport and then complain about the noise, but when people are being taxed through the nose for “luxury” living, then they have a right to expect some peace and quiet at 3:00 AM.
Noise was a huge, huge issue in South Beach for years, especially in SoFi. I believe the residents had some success, but it took many years and countless dozens of meetings and police citations before it happened.
The only business that effects my building is Segafredo’s,since it’s directly under my building. The pub is not a problem, cause they don’t play their outside speakers that loud.
The businesses at mary brickell don’t effect my building yet they break the 100 noise rule too.
Of course I knew that Mary Brickell would be noisy that is why a bought a few blocks away in Infinity
When I bought, I thought that Segafredo’s was a restaurant, never did I think that it turns into a night club at night and by 1:00am they would have their outside patios speakers so loud that you can hear them on the 50th floor of my building. Segafredo’s is hands down the most noisy business in brickell for what I can tell.
However, Like I said already, I am luckly, cause I can shut my door and not hear the music. So I can live with it.
However, many of the residents on the lower floors below me can hear the music with their doors closed, and it effects them sleeping. One guy is breaking his lease over it and when he calls the police they are ineffective in enforcing the rule.
The bottom line is that many of these businesses are breaking the 100 foot noise rule and there will be a day that the city will be forced to enforce it, just like they were forced to enforce the 100 rule for the business area in Coconut Grove. So this will not be issue when I sell my unit some day.
—On a more positive subject…what a perfect Miami day it is today, such a nice cool breeze coming off the bay.
Joe,
Agreed.. the reason these business have gotten away with it so long is because many of these buildings have been empty for a long time and now they are being filled with mostly young renters.
Young renters don’t have any skin in the game, it’s a short temp thing for them. Plus generally they are used to noise and are more likely to like and accept the noise.
Generally it will be the older owners that will not accept the noise, however there are just not enough of older owners living in these buildings yet.
Like you said it will take time and effort to get the city to enforce the rule. The cause will need a strong leader I hope someone steps up to the plate and takes on this major project.
“Plus I think many of folks who live in condos and apts are used to noise from other residents, so they don’t notice it or think it’s an issue.”
“However someone like me who came from a Single family house really notices the noise from folks on my floor.”
These comments really sum up your position. The complaints you have aren’t with the actually buildings in Miami, theyre with living in multifamily structure in an urban core. These issues are always present. I’ve lived in DC and NY in buildings that are more expensive, upscale and have less renters than these buildings and there was still more noise. There is probably more street noise at 4 am there then there is here at anytime because they are true 24 hr cities. If that’s a pain then you move to the Upper East Side from midtown for example.
“but when people are being taxed through the nose for “luxury” living, then they have a right to expect some peace and quiet at 3:00 AM.”
Everyone ideal of luxury living is something different. If you’re looking for peace and quiet then you should think twice about buying a luxury unit ACROSS THE STREET from an area with nightclubs. It’s not like they couldn’t have simply bought a unit a block over and they wouldn’t have had a problem.
I didn’t rent and probably won’t buy a unit west of Brickell ave because I don’t want to walk the extra distance to amenities I use every day. As a sacrifice I have to deal with more noise.
“When I bought, I thought that Segafredo’s was a restaurant, never did I think that it turns into a night club at night and by 1:00am they would have their outside patios speakers so loud that you can hear them on the 50th floor of my building.”
The actual club inside Segafredo’s (Spazio Nero) was open before you bought your place. They simply closed it for renovations to make it larger. A quick google search before you moved in would have given you countless information to tell you that there was going to be plenty of lounges, bars, nightclubs, etc. open until 4 am in the area.
You seem to think that Infinity is this extremely luxurious building, but there is a reason that it’s selling at an average of $250 sqft and that reason is location. Infinity is a very nice building. Move it to a better location and it would be at $350+ sqft. You could have easily went to a building with the same quality as Infinity but in a better location, paid $350+ sqft and not of had these problems.
“Young renters don’t have any skin in the game, it’s a short temp thing for them. Plus generally they are used to noise and are more likely to like and accept the noise.”
I hate to tell you this but it’s not just young renters. Do you really think the Venezuelans and Brazilians buying these condos who are used to places like Caracas and Sao Paulo are going to turn around and complain about the noise of these places?
Who do you think are the people out there at 3 am? I’d expect it to get worse before it gets better, if ever.
If you want a quieter atmosphere then simply don’t buy in these 4 buildings. Were talking about 4 buildings.
Gixxer, you are basically saying yes we have laws in place which protect the residents from the exact issues they are complaining about, but no we don’t see a need to enforce those laws because it would inconvenience the law breakers.
If somebody spends $300k on a luxury building in a very residential area with rules against noise, how can you blame them when they become upset about noise that should not exist? The rules exist and should be enforced-or take them off the books. In coral gables, they are very quick to shut down excessive noise after 11 pm. We experienced a similar situation while living there, and both residents and businesses did not complain about the quiet resolution. A couple of fines will easily do the trick.
What 4 buildings are you talking about?
Gables,
Yes, that is correct, there are 1000s of condos in the area, all we want is the noise laws that are currently on the books to be enforced. And just FYI Segafredo’s have got many tickets about the noise but that make them change their ways.
Gixxer1000
You seem to think that Infinity is this extremely luxurious building, but there is a reason that it’s selling at an average of $250 sqft and that reason is location. Infinity is a very nice building. Move it to a better location and it would be at $350+ sqft. You could have easily went to a building with the same quality as Infinity but in a better location, paid $350+ sqft and not of had these problems.
—> never did I say that extremely luxurious building, I have said many many times it is just like all the other middle of road buildings in Brickell (1060, plaza, etc)
—> The only problem with the location is that it is not on the bay, (which is the same problem that 1060, plaza, axis, 500 brickell ave, etc).
—> the only thing I don’t like about the infinity is that Segafredo’s is directly under the building and they break the existing noise rules. I also don’t like loud residents, however that is like that in all buildings.
If people want to continue to complain that is their right. As owneratinfinty has pointed out there are business that can afford to pay these fines. And if you look at the code there is nothing that is stopping the commission from changing the hours at their discretion.
This isn’t as cut and dry as speeding. We’re talking about an ordinance that regulates whether or not something is affecting “quiet, comfort or repose” of people. It’s very subjective. It would be different if it was clearly stated that the noise cannot exceed 50 db, but it isn’t written that way. And to top it off, it states that a county judge MAY (not SHALL) at his discretion revoke the business license of the offending business.
So basically first you have to convince the authorities that the business is loud enough to affect the quiet, comfort and repose of residents between 11pm and 7 am. It doesn’t say how many or what percentage. Is one person enough or does it need to be 50% of the residents? That’s completely at the discretion of the authorities, not to mention they could simply change the hours to 4 – 7am at their whim. Then if they are found in violation they can issue them a fine. Most establishments seem to see this as the cost to doing business so you’re not going to get any help there. So finally they have the authority to revoke the establishment’s business license IF they want to. Instead they could choose to simply continue issuing fines and collecting revenue for the city, or simply ignore the complaints all together by saying they don’t meet the their interpretation for disturbing the repose of residents because there are only 20 people complaining and let’s face it there are probably 20 people complaining about everything the world.
“In coral gables, they are very quick to shut down excessive noise after 11 pm. We experienced a similar situation while living there, and both residents and businesses did not complain about the quiet resolution. A couple of fines will easily do the trick.”
That is the difference between Brickell and a place like Coral Gables. Coral Gables has more rules and more enforcement because the majority of the people there WANT that enforcement. Because of that enforcement you have very little things to do after 11pm in Coral Gables. For example they have rules that state that 50% or your sales must come from food. This makes it unprofitable for most business to operate as a nightclub or bar in Coral Gables. But the residents are fine with this because they don’t want bars or nightclubs. For that reason I choose not to live there. I’m sure they’ll do fine without little old me.
Each area has to cater to the majority of people in that area. And right now the noisy establishments are bringing more people than they are causing to leave. There is not much retail shopping in Brickell. The draw to Brickell right now is that you have a lot of nightlife open until 4 am. Take that away and the vast majority of the renters are going to simply move somewhere else and property values would have continued to plummet.
Then owneratinfinity would have all the peace and quiet he wants and he’d be complaining that his condo is worthless instead.
owneratinfinity,
“What 4 buildings are you talking about?”
I’m talking about Axis, 1060, Vue and Infinity. They’re really the only buildings that are affected. And even among those buildings it’s mainly low floors and units facing MBV or Segafredo’s.
Once you narrow it down to those units and then down to the people within those units who actually care you see why you’re not getting the response you want.
If it makes you feel any better I got an email that residents on the west side of 1050 were trying to file some type of complaint.
It also effects the rental building Broadway, within these 5 buildings ithe noise effect 100s and 100s of units. (Segafredo effects over 200 in my building alone)
Please let me know if they (the 1050 folks) are interested in including peolpe from other buildings in their complaint, thanks
Gixxer, At least you can rationalize like a Miamian who has lived here for years. The rules are in the books and should be enforced. As I said, if you don’t like the rules you can have them changed. But if a person moves into an area with certain rules on the books, it is not outrageous to expect them to be enforced-like in coral gables. you spend time at UM with plenty of people involved in community planning. Residential, business, industrial and mixed use, etc. there are reasons communities are planned in certain ways-for the enjoyment of all users. no need for urban planners if you don’t follow the rules. you lose all credibility.
Gables,
Yes that is right if a person moves into an area with certain rules on the books, it is not outrageous to expect them to enforce, ,,,that is all we are asking for, and I did know about the 100 foot rule before I bought my place, however I was surprised how hard it was for MArc S and the rest of city to understand the rule and once they understood the rule, they still didn’t enforce it. They care more about the businesses then the property owners that pay high property taxes.
I think in few years if prices go up enough I may just cash out sell my place, and with the equity buy a small older condo near the ocean up the coast line of florida in an area that is quiet.
owneratinfinity,
I didn’t include Broadway because you make it seem like renters are all noisy and rude so why would they care.
But regardless you’re talking about the noise affecting 100’s of units. Just because the noise can be heard from those units doesn’t mean the people living in the unit actually care. You live in one of those units and you care, I live in one of those units and I don’t. If there were hundreds of people complaining they would probably be addressing it, which leads me to believe that the vast majority of the people either don’t care or it doesn’t bother them enough to complain like me.
Now compare those few people living in the 100’s of units who are complaining to the 1000’s of people living Brickell and you’ll see why you keep being ignored.
“The only problem with the location is that it is not on the bay, (which is the same problem that 1060, plaza, axis, 500 brickell ave, etc).”
Location is more than just being on the water or not. As the city grows and fills in it will become more apparent. Whether you live next to groceries, shopping, metro, etc. will all play into the value of a building.I’ll also add that 500 and 1060 have the advantage of a Brickell address. In South America many people know Brickell Ave. in Miami like how many people know 5th ave in NY.
I find it hard to believe that you’re 35 or under and you’re this prude about other people, noise, pets, etc. You must have never lived in a metropolitan city you’re entire life.
1060 has been great so far. They also sent out an email saying people can be fined $100 for being noisy. The person above me was moving furniture one night at 2 am. It only happened once so I didn’t complain. If it happened often I would but I assume everyone should be allowed to be noisy every once in a while. Live and let live I guess. I know there will be times when I want to “live” myself and I don’t want to feel like I’m infringing on someone else. That’s part of living in an urban setting.
gables,
I work in development so being optimistic is a job requirement. And no one is talking about not following the rules. The problem with you’re argument is that there are plenty of people who want these bars and nightclubs. I’m one of them. I chose to live closer to them so I deal with the noise. If the noise bothered me then I’d move across the street.
This has nothing to do with the laws being enforced. The laws are vague and open to interpretation. If you wrote a law that said you can fine me for going over the speed limit but don’t tell me exactly what that speed is and then on top of that you say can suspend my license but don’t have to then you can’t complain when I decide to simply speed to work because I will make more money even if I get a ticket. If you don’t like the enforcement of the laws then either lobby for a new one or don’t support the people who don’t enforce them the way you want.
And this quote from owneratinfinty sums it up:
“They care more about the businesses then the property owners that pay high property taxes. ”
He doesn’t care about the property owners either. He only cares about himself. They’re could be another property owner at Infinity who bought a second home there because they like the nightlife. Who’s interest is more important. They need to balance the needs of all of the people. Owneratinfinity is just upset that he’s in the minority.
I like Coral Gables and wish there was more nightlife there. It would be dumb for me to buy in Coral Gables and then argue how they don’t want to address my interest as a property owner and tax payer and allow the nightlife that I want.
And I know many people who want them to do things like designate districts to exempt from certain laws so they can at least add nightlife in more commercial, less residential areas. But obviously not much changes because they are in the minority there.
G,
I find it hard to believe that you’re 35 or under and you’re this prude about other people, noise, pets, etc. You must have never lived in a metropolitan city you’re entire life.
===> Like I have said many times before I have never owned a condo before, I have only owned single family houses since I was 18 years old. All of them were in quiet areas. I never lived in a city before.
===> So I never experienced living with city folks in such a close setting like this before
===> I do love living in a city. I love I can live without using my car, just by riding my bike or walking It’s great!!
====> I just am having a hard time getting used to nosily residents and businesses with loud outside music. This is a big change for me.
===> Yes, I am different then most peolpe, even when I was 18, I did not like noisy places, peolpe, bars, pets, etc. I found noise is very distracting. It’s just how I am wired.
====> but don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate living in Miami, I ;ike it very much. I find it very interesting, but it’s just a too loud some times. I will never go back to a MCmansion in the burbs again.
====> Most peolpe I know think my area of town and my building is quiet. I am just more sensitive to noise then most peolpe. I Wish I was not, but I am.
gixxer “I work in development so being optimistic is a job requirement. And no one is talking about not following the rules.”
also “Then if they are found in violation they can issue them a fine. Most establishments seem to see this as the cost to doing business so you’re not going to get any help there.”
you don’t see the irony? fines are not meant to be part of doing business-allowing them to be a routine cost of doing business is a really third world view of business-government relationships. and it is this lack of integrity (on both parties) which ultimately keeps an area from achieving its fullest potential for everyone, at the expense of a select few who believe the rules do not apply to them.
How are people saying the rules do not apply to them? They get issued a fine and they pay it. That IS part of the rules. It just so happens that they can make profit even after paying the fines. It sounds like your the one who doesn’t want to play by the rules. You want the rules to be more strict, but right now they aren’t.
This isn’t a third world view this is a business view. You don’t think top corporations don’t look at things this way. If its more profitable to pay a fine than to no make the profit that an activity that the fine brings, they’re going to pay the fine. You either increase the fine or add another more severe type of penalty.
gixxer, you are too young to understand this. but that line of thinking is exactly how the financial crisis came into existence. it is an issue of ethics. and that is why several of the high end business schools, such as harvard, are revamping their curriculum to emphasize ethics in the business world. UM has not really embraced this role of ethics yet, but they will in due time.
That’s funny because I have friends that attend those “high end business schools”. If you think they think any different then you are pretty naive. I posted this scenario on my facebook page and 2 people from HBS, 1 from Wharton and 1 from Columbia all said they’d continue to operate the nightclub as is. Only 1 of them even brought up the ideal of trying to figure out at what level could you possiblly make everyone happy. The rest simply looked at it from the numbers and if it was only a small amount of residents complaining and the authorities weren’t placing any real pressure other than fines then they would ignore them.
The whole role of ehtics is a slight of hand trick to get you to take your mind off the fact that many of our laws don’t protect the individuals like their supposed to.
The graduates from these top business schools all went to huge corporations where they made millions for themselves by abusing the system and taking advantage of less knowledgeable people. And when the shit hits the fan, instead of letting you realize that no one is working on correcting the laws or the fact that the culprits of these problems almost entirely came from top business schools they tell you that they are revamping their curriculum to include ethics training.
If you study ethics then you know that at its core its about protecting the powerless, or the people who don’t have laws to protect them. And the only true way to do that is to create new laws.
Imaging a slave owner saying were not going to make owning slaves illegal but were going to work on our ethics training and that way people wont own slaves because its morally wrong. You’d have to be an idiot to think that is going to happen.
But back on topic the thing I noticed from Lucas’ spreadsheet is that there are a few amount of 3 and 4 bedrooms. I’ve heard that the developer of 900 Biscayne will be doing 700 Biscayne this year because they found a shortage in 3 and 4 bedroom units downtown.
Today, I noticed that the developer of my building sold one of it’s largest units (cash deal) (2734 sf which includes it’s loft open area) for $792,000 ($290 per sf). The unit is on the 46th floor
I am surprised that they sold it for that much money. It’s seems like is a lot of money for a middle of the road building in brickell. If it was me I would of spent that kind of money on a unit in South beach – south of fifth.
Also, I noticed that the developer sold two more units just like mine (cash deals) but on lower floors. One was sold for $51K and the other for $55K more then mine.
That is $20K and $25K more then units they sold like mine a year ago.
I am very surprised that they are able to sell these units for that much more money, then a year ago.
They changed their sales staff a while back, I guess they are finding these cash buyers, who are willing to pay these prices.
gixxer, that is alot of excuses and rationalization. it does not change the fact ethics were a major issue in the crisis we endured, and the top business schools recognized this as an issue and are taking steps to address it on the education end. it will take several years to have an impact, however. you conveniently fail to admit the rules are on the book, and not nearly as vague as you imply (ever dream of being a laywer?). There is an 11pm limit on loud noise, and that is being broken and not enforced. your view is the laws are optional and need not be followed. that is a viewpoint taken by many anarchists, by the way, so consider the company. i know, you are young and invincible today. but someday down the line you will be on the other side of these arguments. then you will understand what others on this blog are saying.
owneratinfinitty,
Fortune International Realty has a very strong network with Latin Americans. They have partnerships with local people and brokers who push Miami.
As far as the increases a lot has changed in the last year or two. Here are some quotes from people on this board back in January 2009:
“Are we still looking at $125 a sq. ft. for beautiful Miami Condo’s?The ACE predicted it…….Renter Tom …confirmed it…….AJ….seconded it……Lara ………..motioned it….and even MUIR agree’s with it.When you have this many experts in one place…..they ALL can’t be wrong.”
“gables – I thought at $200 sq ft i would jump on a condo. Now i can get them in buildings i am interested in, and it does not feel like a good deal. My target is closer to $150 sq ft to pull the trigger now. I am very leery the condos will become a money trap with assessments, HOA and taxes, so unless you buy quite cheap, just not a deal. still a lot of downside to this market i am afraid.”
“Danny – i have a friend that sold more than 10 to Foreign nationals, he is looking for 40% loans on them, no banks are willing to lend in the ICON.The big question is how many units will be able to close..i am betting not many, the rest will go to the bank who will hold and sell them for below 300? below 250? below 200?”
Brings to mind the saying, “be greedy when everyone is afraid and afraid when everyone is greedy”
Turns out people who could purchase at that time were locking in the best deals like yourself. Fast forward to today and while its not all sun and roses there is a lot less uncertainty. Occupancy is way up and rents are rising. Banks have taken over properties and can afford to wait for better deals.
Starwood has a 0% interest loan on the Corus deal. They can afford to sit around and wait. I’ve heard that when they start start selling Paramount it will be at $500 sqft. They’ll probably get going on more retail, grocery stores, etc. to take advantage of the increased occupancy. What a difference a year makes.
gables,
“There is an 11pm limit on loud noise, and that is being broken and not enforced. your view is the laws are optional and need not be followed.”
What are you talking about. I recognize the rules on the books. The rules are if you are found “guilty” of breaking the rules you are given a FINE. Where have I ever advocated that these business shouldn’t be given a fine if found guilty?????
My argument is that if they can afford the fine then they continue business as usual. So if you want to stop them you need to change the laws to be more strict and then enforce those laws.
Contrary to your beliefs I believe laws should be enforce fairly. But the problem is usually that the laws are vague and allow politics into the system.
Why not simply write the law so that after a business is fined so many times then it loses is business license automatically instead of saying that a judge can choose to take away the license at his “discretion”.
But as the law is written right now these business can be fined every single night for the next 20 years and can still continue to do so as long as the pay the fines and the judge does not “personally” see it fit to revoke their license. That’s the law, like it or not.
Gixxer1000, you said,
Fortune International Realty has a very strong network with Latin Americans. They have partnerships with local people and brokers who push Miami.
====> yes they are going a great job selling quickly selling the building. They are the same ones that sold your 1060 building qiickly back in 2009.
====> I got my first neighbor this week to move in to the unit next to me. Sadly for me, they are worst possible peolpe for me to live next to, they are very loud and worst then that they all are chain smokers that are always on their patio smoking.
====> The smoke goes into my patio and if my door is open into into my apt. Smelling cigs makes me sick, so this puts a major limit on how much I can use by my patio and have my door open.
====> I knew this could happen, but I was praying there would be a non-smoker next door. So much for enjoying fresh breezing coming off the bay.
===> I only good thing is that they are renters and when they move out, I may get lucky and get a non-smoker. I notice a lot of peolpe smoke in Miami (Sf). Smelling someone’s smoke is the worst.
====> Before these peolpe move in it was like living alone in a very cool tree house at the top of a very tall tree.
====> I spoke to one of realtors from fortune yesterday, if looks like they can sell my place to one of their buyers pretty quickly and it looks like I could net $100K, less my closing costs. It would give me plenty of money to buy a smaller older place up north on the east coastal line.
===> Sadly, I am too young to live in one those 55+ building. They are very quite there, with lots of rules that are enforced.
===> My new chain smoking neighbor along with the noise from the business below me who is breaking the existing noise rule really started me thinking about selling my place.
===> Also, Some times I wonder if my place is too nice for my simple needs, I would very happy living in a “old shoe” as long as it’s quite and smoke free
====> I guess you can take the boy out of the quiet smokeless Mcmansion in the burbs, but you can’t take the quiet smokeless Mcmansion in the burb out of the boy
====> I don’t want to be rash and quickly sell my place, my place is perfect for my needs, I fixed it up very well, and I like it, plus it is very affortable for me, and I know I will never be able to buy such a nice brand new place on such a high floor and with such a great view again for the little money I paid for it.
====> But, I need to start seeing my place as just one of my investments and be a “big boy” and get over the issues in living in a big condo building. These issues are in most big condo buildings.
As far as the increases a lot has changed in the last year or two. Here are some quotes from people on this board back in January 2009:
“Are we still looking at $125 a sq. ft. for beautiful Miami Condo’s?The ACE predicted it…….Renter Tom …confirmed it…….AJ….seconded it……Lara ………..motioned it….and even MUIR agree’s with it.When you have this many experts in one place…..they ALL can’t be wrong.”
“gables – I thought at $200 sq ft i would jump on a condo. Now i can get them in buildings i am interested in, and it does not feel like a good deal. My target is closer to $150 sq ft to pull the trigger now. I am very leery the condos will become a money trap with assessments, HOA and taxes, so unless you buy quite cheap, just not a deal. still a lot of downside to this market i am afraid.”
“Danny – i have a friend that sold more than 10 to Foreign nationals, he is looking for 40% loans on them, no banks are willing to lend in the ICON.The big question is how many units will be able to close..i am betting not many, the rest will go to the bank who will hold and sell them for below 300? below 250? below 200?”
=====> YES good point, these are the comments that worried me when I went to buy my place in the fall of 2009. I am somewhat of a risk taken, so I listened to my gut and I bought anyways. So I just toke those comments with a grain of salt.
Brings to mind the saying, “be greedy when everyone is afraid and afraid when everyone is greedy”
===> very good saying, I have to remember that.
Turns out people who could purchase at that time were locking in the best deals like yourself. Fast forward to today and while its not all sun and roses there is a lot less uncertainty. Occupancy is way up and rents are rising. Banks have taken over properties and can afford to wait for better deals.
Starwood has a 0% interest loan on the Corus deal. They can afford to sit around and wait. I’ve heard that when they start start selling Paramount it will be at $500 sqft. They’ll probably get going on more retail, grocery stores, etc. to take advantage of the increased occupancy. What a difference a year makes.
===> Correct and Starwood seems to have deep pockets judging from all the re-decorating and improvements they did to the buildings common areas recently.
gixxer, you should not need to write laws that are so specific. it is absurd. then people complain about too many laws and too much detail-all because of viewpoints that say if i can technically find a loophole then i am legal. i know this keeps lawyers in business, but it is absurd nonetheless. you subscribe to a point of view that if i have enough money (thus can pay the fines), then i really do not have to follow the laws. it forces us into the use of jailtime to have people follow the rules, which again is really not a satisfactory approach. just follow the law, do not break it.
owner, glad you brought up my quote. Today I can still buy units at $200 sf in the buildings I have been interested in. And many units over the past year could be bought for less than that price. But my rent also decreased by 15% over that time as well. But i will say the HOA and other fees have not resulted in the disasters they could have become-at least not yet-which is good for the miami market.
So today i can buy the same unit at the same price as two years ago (while living the past couple years at rents much below my carrying costs) with considerably less downside risk to HOA (taxes will probably rise) and home value (although looks like the country is headed for that double dip again). You were able to capture a price at the bottom-good for you-but in reality most purchases cannot be timed like that. but people today can still strike a deal near those lows, while taking on fewer risks at the time of purchase. just depends on how you value the risks.
gables. I understand
gables, I just remembered, I also got the $6500 tax credit from the IRS, so I actual bought the place for $6500 less then purchase price, if you think of it like that.
And as long as I stay in the property for at least 3 years as your perm residence I don’t have to pay the credit back. That is the most generous thing the IRS has even done for me.
Hi, Guys
I took a tour this afternoon to see what you are talking about. It is surprising to know that a corner restaurant that size away from other buildings can make the noise that you all are talking about. I went in there and talked to a waiter and the manager. I told them that I came to see the restaurant because lots of people are complainging online about the noise they are making after midnight. They flatly denied it and suggested that it must be one at the Beach. I said, “No” and pointed to them the Infinity and said “They can hear you!” And I added “Keep it up!” They laughed sheepishly. It does not hurt to talk to them personally. They might listen to you. Nobody likes bad reputation.
Thanks for effort….
Over a year ago I dealt with the manager there and the city, and it was a waste of time, nothing was done, because I was only one that was complaining from my building.My building was real empty back then.
However, now where are many more peolpe in my building now that does not like the noise.
Including a girl that I just met today. She can hear the music from their lower floor condo unit that she is renting on the west side of the building.
I think in about 6 months, once the building is 75-80% percent full, I will have to start the process again with the city to have them enforce the existing 100 noise rule, so they would lower their music from their patio speakers.
At that time there will be plenty of peolpe in my building to sign a complaint against their noise and we will have to work and work and work and work with city to get them to enforce the rule.
I hate getting involved with this again, but I know I can get them to enforce the rule, as long as I have other residents in my building to support the effort.
P.S. I have a date with the girl that I met today. She is coming over for dinner at my place tomorrow. She was impressed that I can cook. Score!!
I’m glad you can cook, because you definitely can’t write! Who the f#ck are “peolpe?”
I hope she’s as impressed with your glorious 50th floor view as you are.
Drew, So Negative.. So sad…
Jesus, listening to owner complain about smoke and noise coming into his unit reminds me of some neurotic character from a woody allen movie.
DJ, insulting others, does that make you feel better?
Dear Infinity,
Don’t worry about what others say. Carry it on please. We all need a comic relief.
Thanks, but I don’t worry about the haters. I am just happy that I am not them.
owner, have you had your buildings management and/or board address the issue? this does fall somewhat into an area of their responsibility.